Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time - general discussion

[Bond]

I brought up Jordan again because on another thread I was surprised to find that someone was already thinking of skipping reading Jordan and his WoT just because of the prevalent trend of people railing against WoT. I can understand the popular backlash to some extent but surely it has gone way too far when it is already taking the form of the poisoning of the opinions of would-be readers. It seems there still needs to be some more INTELLIGENT discussion on the relative merits Jordan's work possesses.

Let me clarify and correct one or two common gripes against Jordan:

He is Slow, Long, and Boring

True in certain parts Jordan goes on and on with useless descriptions that can be described as nothing more than filler--more so in his most recent works. This view, however, must be tempered with the understanding that when we are talking about Jordan and the Wheel of Time we are also talking about one of the most enthralling reads in all fantasy, and IMO--among all I have read--the worthiest of being called the pinnacle of fantasy soap opera bar none.

He is Bubblegumish

Again true. This is not the darkest most depressing gothic tale ever told. There is a certain campiness in dealing with a lot of characters and situations. There is no clear political or philosophical message readily apparent and if there was one it probably would come across as pretty lame. Doesn't mean the story is bad and not worth reading for those who seek entertainment. On the contrary it is extremely good.

My main point: The best criticisms of Jordan must be accompanied with some pretty strong qualifications. A fair evaluation of Jordan recognizes both his weaknesses and his strengths. All I seem to be hearing is the former.

One must wonder then how Jordan is bad and not worth reading. This is especially so when he can get people who snicker about his work to still buy the ninth edition in hardcover. Even for those who truly did give up on him, the majority will admit they did so at around book 6. Again if all of it was that bad how could they bear reading six books before they gave up? Only those who gave up on book 1 do I see as having an understandably bad opinion of Jordan. Eye of the World displayed most of what makes Jordan bad and I can only feel sorry for them for what they are missing out on.

For those just beginning with Jordan just remember the skill and thrill of the prologue can be found later on in larger quantitites once the story gets going around 2/3 of the way through EotW and continues in higher gear for the next three books.

*Oh just in case, a message for the moderators:

Please don't close the thread unless you can refer me to a better one. The best exclusively Jordan thread I've seen so far begins with an unmarked spoiler and some of the others I found using a search aren't there anymore when you click on them.*


[This message has been edited by Bond (edited January 12, 2002).]

[Bardos]

To tell the truth, I hated EotW, but loved tGH and tDR. Now, being in 350 pages in the 6th book (yes I've read some) I find amusing to come back to Jordan sometimes and read. But it's just that: amusing. This guy begins a whole NEW thread in the 6th book!!! It's appearent he does NOT want to finish the tale. If you want to end a story, you don't start new threads in the 6th book!!
Also his "men from Mars women from Vinnus" concept applying to all men and all women in his story is way too foolish.
But, all in all, I already said I find it amusing to get back to him time and again --like a sopa opera indeed (thought I prefer Sanda Barbara to Jordan! And the fools cut it off from the TV... )

[Qin]

It seems to me that you've already answered your own question Bond, about the worthwhileness of Jordan's series. You've made it clear that he "goes on and on with useless descriptions that can be described as nothing more than filler" and that he is "bubblegumish" (what that may mean I don't know).

Now as far as I know, there have been a fair amount of intelligent discussions regarding Jordan's series. But, for the sake of argument, there's no harm in starting a new one.

What I've extrapolated from your post is your lack of concern with Jordan's quality; you simply want his books to be read regardless. The fact of the matter is that there is nothing remotely worthwhile in his books. A reader would miss absolutely nothing by skipping over them. There are far better writers in this world than Jordan who deserve more of our attention.

Many have argued that George R.R. Martin is a far superior writer, and their argument isn't without reason. Martin has had a far more beneficial effect upon the genre than Jordan has. While Wheel of Time has become rather dull and lackadaisical, Martin's is filled with that which he promised: tragedy, romance, epic battles and a story of epic scale.

But I digress.

You wish to know what the merits are for Jordan's work. Well clearly he's given Tor new life: he is a New York Times bestseller. He has also given Goodkind a source to blatantly and shamelessly steal from.

Jordan enjoys referencing classical myths and legends within the context of his story; the Aes Sedai, Gawain, Arthur Pendragon, Herbert's Fremen (that last possibly being unintentional), and so forth. A reader could gain a fair bit of knowledge about mythology from his works.

That is perhaps the only merit his works have in my mind. I myself don't relish purchasing his books. It's not something i look foward to anymore. But then, I've read so many books, that I may as well finish the series.

[This message has been edited by Qin (edited January 10, 2002).]

[ChrisW]

Well ummm as you all know or should , Jordan is my favourite author and the WoT is my favourite series.

Do I think that the series is to long and is being stretched out? No I don't.

Is he slow? There have been times when I've dreaded reading a certain POV due to not liking a character but i've never found the pace of the books slow.

Is he boring? Hell no! He has made me laugh, cry,cringe and get goosebumbs.

As for people who say that he's drawing out the series for money, well they make me sooo mad I can't express what I feel towards them. Jordan has earnt every god damn penny as far i'm concerned.

The Wheel of Time is not 9 books it's one book split into 13 parts(13 is an educated guess).

hrm Erikson seems to have done the smart thing and actually said that his series will be 10 books long. That way no one can critise him for drawing out the series unless he goes over 10

[Mithfânion]

I'm told he's very good at describing what people will be wearing today and how they came to that decision as well. And the day after that again. Sounds exciting

"Well, say what you want about Jordan but at least he's got a huge following"

An oft heard cry. Perhaps these folks had no idea what else is on the market. Leaving that for what it is, the fact that his series just will not end is proof enough that he's indeed milking it for all its worth. 13 books!!?



[This message has been edited by Mithfânion (edited January 10, 2002).]

[Qin]

Jordan has stated many times that his story was intended to be three or four books long. He stated that he knew the ending and how to get there. At worst, he thought the series would be six books long.

Book 10 is due for release this year.

Take the time and consider this thought: if he knew what he was going to be writing about, how to get there, what he was going to write about, and what the ending was, and he *knew* how many books it would take, then why is WoT ten books and counting?

You do the math...

[Barbarossa]

My problem with Jordan isn't that he's long, I love long books. I used to like Jordan too, even though, at best I thought him barely good, never great.

From the start though, I thought, Jordan lacked originality. He wove mostly standard pieces in a fair enough plot, but basically everything was there before. There were only a few exceptions as Telariod (sp?), which were fairly original.

Fortunatly for Jordan originality has become so rare in fantasy that few people minded.

From the the start the books gave me the feeling, that they needed an editor. But it got a lot worse with time. Books 1-6 should have been cut to 5 with half the cuts in book 6, book 7 -9 make one half decent book between them.

Do I think Jordan milks the series for money? Actually NO, I dont. I think it's worth. I think he completely hast lost his focus, he is lost in his own labyrinth. He always claim he has the ending ready, that may be, but I doubt he knows the way there.

And that is what is making the books so unbearable. Not the length, not the endless fillers of braid-tucking and skirt-smoothing, but the lack of advancing.

At least that's my opinion. Like Qin I will read on, to see how it all ends, but it's an ordeal ra<ther than fun, by now.

If Jordan still entertains you, good for you, I envy you for the easiness with which you can be pleased.

[Qin]

Jordan will always entertain me. As long as Mat continues with his womanizing ways, and as long as Perrin continues getting whipped by Faile and Rand sticking around Min, I'm there.

That doesn't stop his books from being tedious suckfests though

Now if Jordan could focus more on Logain and the Black Tower and get on with the War of the Aes Sedai - which was promised two books ago - I'd be thrilled.

And I want to know how it'll all end too ;P

[jbcohen]

Well I can understand what these people that Bond is talking of are trying to say. I am three quarters of the way through the fifth novel and I am still trying to understand the Aiels and the eay that the people are organized. I would love to have a basic primer on the people of the Weel of Time, approved by Jordan of course. He is a bit dificult to understand in a lot of the threads that he has running through his books and it is quite dificult to keep his threads understandable at times.

Please also understand that no matter how well an author writes there will always be invidivduals out there that will not like the work. I for one have failed to get interested in some of the most famous and great fantasy litterature including Tolkine and Martin. Never could keep things streight in Martin's books. The difference of perspectives go me confused. So there is no dis-honor in being slandered as Jordan has. I do not feel that there is any problem with the bad things that have been said aboutr Jordan, same things are being said of Goodkind and Dragon Lance. There are a lot of prople that think that Dragon Lance novels are silly little things that belong on the self not in hand being read. Me I can't seem to get enough of them (I counted last night and I own approximatly 35 of the novels). This does not mean that the saga is any less worthy of being read.

Still I can understand bond's anger. I would simply say, different strokes for different folks.

[Bond]

"What I've extrapolated from your post is your lack of concern with Jordan's quality; you simply want his books to be read regardless." --Qin

But there is quality--or at least there was and there might yet be again. Pray tell what has kept you interested all this time if there was no quality? I think they should be read because there is something there worth reading: one of the most gripping fantasy yarns ever set in one of the grandest most epic of fantasy worlds.

"The fact of the matter is that there is nothing remotely worthwhile in his books. A reader would miss absolutely nothing by skipping over them." --Qin

I respectfully disagree. Skipping Jordan for a fantasy entusiast is like going to the country fair and not riding the big rollercoaster. True you probably could say you didn't miss much but you probably did miss something.

"There are far better writers in this world than Jordan who deserve more of our attention." --Qin

There you are again Qin asserting that particular bravado of yours. Of whom do you speak? Shakespeare? Goethe? Dante? Cervantes? Proust? Kafka? Salinger? Or are you talking of Martin? A lot of what Martin attempts to do has been done by Jordan before Martin and not to recognize this is prudishness. If nothing else I think Martin is benefitting by learning what to avoid in Jordan's example.

"I think he completely hast lost his focus, he is lost in his own labyrinth. He always claim he has the ending ready, that may be, but I doubt he knows the way there." --Barbarossa

This does reflect what I feel may be the case as well. But the final definitive answer will probably only be found in his future books. Now a lot can be gleaned from this point of view upon which we can make rational decisions on our own actions concerning this series. The one that makes most sense to me is that one might decide to postpone reading the series until its conclusion. It also strikes me that it would be prudent to endeavor to read it from a library or borrow it from somebody instead of buying it outright and committing one's resources to an indefinitely long series. Such reasoning, however, does not lead me to the conclusion that I should make it a point to skip the series altogether because there is nothing to it.

I thought, Jordan lacked originality. He wove mostly standard pieces in a fair enough plot, but basically everything was there before. There were only a few exceptions as Telariod (sp?), which were fairly original. --Barbarossa

I must admit that I have not read the most avant garde work that the fantasy genre has to offer but I am not completely without reading experience. An attack on WoT based on originality terms alone does WoT no justice for it does innovate and it does raise the bar in what one expects from popular fantasy. In terms of complex edge-of-your-seat plotting I find it difficult to think of an equal in any genre and I'm already comparing with classics such as The Count of Monte Cristo, Les Miserables, War and Peace and many a Hitchcock movie. I would appreciate suggestions on some that are clearly superior in this regard to WoT. Presuming he does not innovate on ideas, I find it hard to imagine him not being among the most detailed in fleshing them out. His magic system is actually too clear for my liking: Saidar, Saidin; True Power, One Power; angreal, ter'angreal, sa'angreal; Forsaken, Asha'man, Aes Sedai, Warders, Sea Mistresses, Wise Ones, Damane, Knitting Circle; weaves such as travelling, skimming, balefire; etc. Plus much much more. You telling me in everything he's written only Telaranrhiod(sp?) was original? Boy you're demanding! I'm sorry that so much is required to please you. Am I really missing out on that much? Dang I've got to read more!

Correct me if I am mistaken, but is the present trend of extending fantasy series beyond three books largely attributable to Jordan or is someone else more responsible? Of course there have always been fantasy series not three books in length (e.g. Narnia) but there has undeniably been a mindset to create trilogies. Even if it wasn't Jordan, from my admittedly outside the publishing industry eyes, I think his success has made it easier for other authors to convince publishers to remove the three book restriction on fantasy. Whoever started this trend has in a subtle but significant way innovated and broken one of the conventions established by Tolkien. Is that a bad thing? The verdict is probably still out on that one. Also is it just me or has anyone else noticed that fantasy books are getting longer? Who created the "fat fantasy"?


[This message has been edited by Bond (edited January 10, 2002).]

[Mithfânion]

Correct me if I am mistaken, but is the present trend of extending fantasy series beyond three books largely attributable to Jordan or is someone else more responsible?

I think he was one of the first yes, but I cannot say that with an absolute certainty. Having said that, more books in a series (than three or even 6-7) isn't necessarily a bad thing.

As for Tolkien, you may or may not know that was never written as a series. It was one long novel, intended to be a single book by JRRT but was split up by the publisher due to size.

[James Barclay]

I'm personally not a Jordan fan at all but levelling the 'stretching it out for money' accusation against him alone is unfair even if it is true.

What do you think any fantasy series is doing? The fact is, fantasy sells better in series format than in individual novels and it is an unusual genre in that regard. It won't have been Jordan's decision alone to extend the series - publisher and agent pressure will be there so long as there is a market. I think he is in danger of losing much of his market and the concurrent respect many readers have but that's another argument about timing and getting out at the top, so to speak.

If he's still selling well and popularly in to his ninth, tenth and beyond books, good for him.

Supply and demand is what it's about and his sales figures will inform about why he still churns them out. No one is forced into the shop to buy his latest offering, are they?And if, despite reservations, people are still interested enough to buy and read the next one, he's doing something very critical, absolutely right. Isn't he?

[Rob B]

Wow a Jordan topic that is actually a good debate with intelligent backing up of statements (and without mentioning another TOR author who shall we say, has a very similar seemingly unending story). Well, for most folks so far.

And Bond, there hasn't been a good Jordan topic for some time. Worry not, 007.

Anyway, at one time I thought WOT was one of the better fantasy series out there, but for me the unending descriptions and overtelling of Nynaeve's twisting of her braids has gotten to be more of a speed bump than anything.

I mean he was doing a helluva job up to about Lord of Chaos, but I feel he hit a brick wall that started with Crown of Swords and ended somewhere in the middle of Winter's Heart (the last couple hundred pages and the ending was probably some of the best stuff of the series).

Is the series dragging a bit? Well, I feel it is. Will I continue reading the series. Without a doubt.

I have invested too much time and for that matter concern about the characters. Jordan has created, while perhaps a bit typical, very rich and textured world (one may say TOO complex).

Some other criticisms about his following. Perhaps his gazillions of fans **don't** know of other fantasy. Well its a shame for them.

I think the worst thing that happened was when Lan and Nynaeve got together and when the god-awfully annoying Faile sunk here claws into Perrin.

I wouldn't exactly say Jordan gave Tor new life. They were established as a (or maybe THE) premier publisher of SFF prior to tEotW. They've been voted #1 publisher by Locus for 13 or 14 years now. They had people like Orson Scott Card in their ranks. You could argue Jordan did help to usher in a new phase of the BIG FAT FANTASY.

[Bond]

"Anyway,it seems there are plenty of Jordan lovers here so that's some counter weight for all the bashings I've seen at Tolkienonline, the Song of Ice and Fire board and a couple of others who were all pretty unanimous in their feelings about this series, ranking it as the poorest Fantasy around along with Eddings and Goodkind." --Mithfanion in another thread

Oh brother! Asking Tolkien fanatics for their opinion on Jordan! What is the world coming to? When the Tolkien legions aren't off on some expedition to discredit Harry Potter the newest threat to the perceived Tolkien fantasy hegemony it's predictable they'd be badmouthing Jordan. It's practically a badge of honor to incur their ire.

As for Martin, he is most popular with those who have become disillusioned with Jordan. Look at his work and you'll see he pretty much makes it a point to do everything in a way that avoids the criticism Jordan incurred. Unfortunately IMO even if he is coming after, Martin is still unable or, perhaps to put it in a better light, unwilling to match Jordan at what Jordan does best.

[This message has been edited by Bond (edited January 10, 2002).]

[Rob B]

Originally posted by Bond:
Unfortunately IMO even if he is coming after, Martin is still unable to match Jordan at what Jordan does best.

And what would that be, give unending, countless descriptions of women folding their arms under thier breasts and assuring his fans that the series will take at least three more books (with every book published)?

Sorry Bond, but you left yourself pretty wide open with that one!