During RateFail 09 (the Black Matrix fiasco), Ann Leckie made a post that said basically "unless your story credit comes from a reputable magazine, I'm not going to care. In fact, a credit from a magazine I don't like can actually hurt your chances".
So my question is, how do you know one magazine is more reputable than another? Is there some criteria you can use? Pay rate? Acceptance rate? Response time?
Well, there are a bunch of things you can do. First off, you can go to a site like Ralan.com, which kindly has all the info it can gather on the magazines and their rates, and see where a mag is placed on the totem pole of size. That gives you some idea. There are lists of rip off operations in Preditors and Editors and at the SFWA site, so you can avoid those altogether. You can check out if the magazine has published some known names -- that's a good indication of reputation obviously. You can check and see if the magazine is listed when people make lists of SFF magazines. A mag that has built up a reputation is going to be mentioned on those lists. You can check out who the editor is -- is it an author known in publishing or indie publishing, someone who's done other magazines in the past, etc. And lastly, you can check the award nominations for short fiction and see if the mag has had authors nominated.
But there are a lot more issues to consider. Leckie in a sense exaggerates about magazines she doesn't like because everybody knows that authors are clueless. So if you get into a mag they don't like, it isn't really going to get held against you, especially if Leckie or someone else likes the story. But if you get into magazines that they've never heard of, they aren't going to care that much. But that doesn't matter, as even if you have no credits, they'll still look at the story and see if they want it.
Black Matrix was a slick, new, seemingly well-funded operation that was offering authors an extremely low rate, which is what bugged Scalzi. Scalzi has long been involved with Subterranean Press, an indie publisher, so he's not unaware of semi-pros with no pay, etc., but he thought Black Matrix was a bad business and urged authors to shoot for pubs with higher rates as part of a practical line of attack on the market. Black Matrix understandably took exception to this, but tried to claim they were a tiny start-up, which didn't wash with what they were doing.
But RateFail only occurred when SF Signal for some reason let a MFA student accuse Scalzi and others of things they didn't say and paint a picture of the magazine market that was wildly inaccurate (whereupon after rather gentle treatment from the pros, she denied she'd ever said anything of the sort.) This led to endless discussion as to whether pro magazines actually look at uncredited writers (they do,) and the worthiness of no-pay and small pay semi-pros, some of which was maybe productive and some of which probably just perpetuated myths about the magazine field. (In my opinion, the short fiction SFF market is maybe one of the nicest, most democratic industries you'll ever find. It is a market with virtually no money that's kept alive by passion and stubborness.)
There are a ton of really good semi-pro magazines that pay nothing, but might give you good experience. There is a third tier of semi-pro magazines that pay very little, but may give you good experience, good editing and a bit of exposure. There is a second tier of semi-pro magazines that pay somewhat more, give you good experience and editing, and a good bit more exposure. And lastly there are the pro magazines, which are pros because they pay the going pro rates, and obviously they are going to give you the most exposure. Sorting through them becomes a matter of monitoring the market, of learning who the publications are, how often their names come up in the field, how well known they are, who the editors are, etc.
How much time you want to put into that is up to you. But it really doesn't hurt to start with submissions to the pro mags and work your way down the rate scale, keeping in mind what sort of stories in general a particular mag is after. It can take a long time to get a sale and magazines go out of business every five seconds, but it's not bad training for the book market, or if you just want to do shorts. It's a good lesson in persistence.
Agreeing with KatG. It's a writer's decision whether to try the top of the heap first and let the story sort of pinball down to its level, or try to guess the level and go for a faster acceptance. The problem with the latter approach is that you can undersell your work--it may be better than you thought. OTOH, trying for the top tier first is likely to earn you a bucket of rejections before and during your first acceptances.
As far as I know, both strategies can lead to successful pro careers later, and both strategies can fail if you're unlucky. It's "guess, grab, and go for it."
This is exactly true.Originally Posted by KatG
The reason I wrote what I did wasn't because I wanted people to stop subbing to places I don't like much, or to tell people that their actual chances of selling a story would be hurt by claiming certain credits--they won't. If your story is what the editor wants, she'll buy it no matter what your credits are.
No, the thing that set me off was the claim that writers starting out must or should submit to lower-tier markets in order to get some kind of credits to put in their cover letter. Any sort of credit, this "advice" goes, will make an editor actually pay attention to your story, and you work your way up from the bottom, your credits being sort of like stamps on your passport on your various stops to the top.
Every time I see a discussion about pay rates or the advisability of selling to 4-the-luv markets, someone pops up and says new writers need to sell to those lowest tier magazines so they can get credits that will make the editors of higher tier zines actually pay attention to their work. But that's not true! The story's the thing, no one actually cares about your credits.
The point wasn't really that some credits will materially hurt you--it was that "I need some sort of credit so editors in the big leagues will actually read my story" is a bad reason to sub to a zine that doesn't pay much or at all.
You might have other reasons to sub to the tiny, low-tier places--I could list a million. Different writers have different goals. Just don't think that you need some kind of credit to get an editor to read your story, that's all.
The rest of the credit thing--they have a small influence on the editor's expectations when she starts reading. This will make no difference if your story is what she wants--but as a writer myself, I know how little control I have over what the editor decides, and this one moment, this one tiny thing, gives the writer the tiniest amount of control, lets the writer just slightly prejudice the editor, in a good way. There's almost no way to talk about that without exaggerating it, and I tried to be explicit about how small an effect that is. It's very small. It will be eclipsed by the story, every time.
Quoted for truth. I could have quoted your whole post for truth, really.There are a ton of really good semi-pro magazines that pay nothing, but might give you good experience. There is a third tier of semi-pro magazines that pay very little, but may give you good experience, good editing and a bit of exposure. There is a second tier of semi-pro magazines that pay somewhat more, give you good experience and editing, and a good bit more exposure. And lastly there are the pro magazines, which are pros because they pay the going pro rates, and obviously they are going to give you the most exposure. Sorting through them becomes a matter of monitoring the market, of learning who the publications are, how often their names come up in the field, how well known they are, who the editors are, etc.
How much time you want to put into that is up to you. But it really doesn't hurt to start with submissions to the pro mags and work your way down the rate scale, keeping in mind what sort of stories in general a particular mag is after. It can take a long time to get a sale and magazines go out of business every five seconds, but it's not bad training for the book market, or if you just want to do shorts. It's a good lesson in persistence.
Also, btw, I look in the honorable mentions of the various Years Bests and see where those stories came from. Those are mags that the YB editors read, or at least are on their radar.
Forgot that one; that's not a bad way to sort them.Also, btw, I look in the honorable mentions of the various Years Bests and see where those stories came from. Those are mags that the YB editors read, or at least are on their radar.
I'm going to cut in on this.
Whether I start at the top or go for a 'faster acceptance' entirely depends. I will cheerfully write a story for an anthology that pays 1 c/wo (and have made several sales that way). However, a story I write NOT on spec, always goes to a pro rate magazine or two first. And I personally do not submit to magazines that do not pay at least 1 c/wo unless there's some other VERY good reason.
As for avoiding scams. P&E is good.
But here are a few litmus tests:
1. Go to duotrope.com and look at the responses there. Unless the magazine is marked as 'fledgling' (which they define as less than six months old), look at the acceptance/rejection ratio. A magazine that isn't giving out many rejections might have low editorial standards.
2. Read the magazine if you can...I can't always afford to buy lots of sample copies. If they have sample stories online, read them. PROOF read them. If there are typos, if there are commas in the wrong place, then the editor is asleep on the job. Some small e-zines...don't edit. They will cheerfully put the story up exactly as the writer sent it to them. It's wise to know which ones they are.
3. Do they offer a contributors' copy? This is particularly important for anthologies. If they don't pay OR offer a contributors' copy, or offer only a 'discount' on copies and don't pay...you just ran into a vanity anthology scam. A contributors' copy should be standard unless you are submitting to an ezine that does not charge its readers. It's fine if it's the electronic version not the print version, but you should get one. Professional magazines and some high rate anthologies often offer two copies. (Note: Some magazines don't mention in the submission guidelines that they give copies, but DO give them...presumably because the editors think it is so standard it doesn't need to be stated)
4. Is their web site professional? If their web site is riddled with typos, then that points to low editorial standards. If they are rude in their submission guidelines, then they're likely to be rude to their authors (the worst case of this being the literary magazine with the f word in the submission guidelines...I'm not going to name names in public, but I sure as heck won't be submitting to them). If their web site looks like an old Expage site, then their cover art might be equally bad.
Finally, nothing is worth dealing with an editor who doesn't do his or her job right...if the editor is rude, or tries to rewrite your story without permission,
When it comes to submissions, though, there is a good reason to submit to lower tier, but reputable, magazines and anthologies other than 'to get credits' (Although I recommend trying the pro rates first unless writing to spec).
Practice.
From working with small press I have learned:
1. That a rejection is not a rejection of you, but only of that specific piece of work. Being rejected is no reason to get upset.
2. That editors are human, that they make mistakes, that they have bad days and snap at their writers. But that a good one is worth his or her weight in gold-pressed latinum. A good editor does not want to mangle your story, but to perfect it.
3. How the process of publication works...both when it goes smoothly and when it does not...what a contract looks like, whether it's a formal one or a simple email.
4. How to deal with being screwed over. My very first acceptance came, then the contract came, then...I never heard from them again. The story was never printed. I was never paid. That sort of thing happens. And worse...I do know people who have had stories published and never been paid for them because the publisher went broke or turned out to be a scam at that point. You pick yourself up and you carry on, no matter what...whether it's from that, or catching an editor at the wrong moment and getting a rude rejection.
5. How to deal with criticism and bad reviews (and good reviews, which always feel good...but be careful. It's best not to take ANY review too seriously).
6. How to write to spec and rewrite to editorial request. I honestly think that if you want to make *money* as a writer, you need to be able to write to spec. Famous writers get commissions all the time, they get editors call them up and say 'Hey, can you write me a story about Y?' and a professional needs to be able to sit down and do it. Rewriting to editorial request is even more important...and includes when to stick to your guns and say to an editor 'No. That is not going to happen.'
From the noobie perspective:
I just started submitting myself (last 3-4 months?) and Jennifer's process is basically the one I use. Personally, I haven't submitted to any magazines that duotrope considers "Fledgeling" (less than 6 months old), as that seems a little risky to me.
I've been using the "start at the top and work down" strategy thus far, although, there are only a few stories where I'm starting at the pro magazine level (for most I'm beginning at the "semi-pro" level). Where I start is either based on a gut feeling or due to feedback from this site.
The best piece of advice I can offer - You will get rejected. Don't let it bum you out - Just move on to the next.
Ann - Excellent tip on looking for those 'honorable mention' sites... hadn't thought of that.
The title to this post sounds like a bad writing joke:
Q: How do you know a reputable magazine?
A: They reject you on nicer stationary.
Hah!
And Sterling, you *never* know what an editor will like. I've been pleasantly surprised (and disappointed) before now. Gut feelings are not often accurate.
Don't self-reject.
This. You can't read an editor's mind, and it's hard to view one's own work objectively. Unless the guidelines say "no fantasy" and you've got a sword and sorcery story on your hands, don't worry too much about what sort of thing you think the editor will want. If it matches the basic guidelines--it's the right genre, mainly, but sometimes editors will be a little more specific--send it.
Jennifer - You're right... I've found that out through submitting to the flash contests here - I've had a few stories of mine that I personally didn't like very much do particularly well, and a few others go in quite the opposite direction.
I'm curious - How many shots do you usually take before heading down to the next 'tier'?
(Holy crap... as I typed this message I was checking my email... I've made it to the final selection round for an honest to goodness pro-zine... wow would that be something...
Last edited by Sterling13; January 7th, 2010 at 12:43 PM. Reason: The email bit...
It doesn't quite work like that. It's entirely dynamic, based off of genre, what else I have out, who is taking submissions right now. I do it a lot by fail.
And yes, that would. Which reminds me, I have to email an editor about a contract that hasn't arrived yet.
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