Reading Group Discussion: A CANTICLE FOR LEIBOWITZ

[vortexreader]

I have to confess that I haven't managed to finish reading this months title yet...and probably won't for a couple more days. But that doesn't mean the discussion can't start without me!

I have an initial starting point for discussion though:

1.) Miller's novel was written during height of the Cold War when fears of a nuclear war seemed very real. Do you think the novels impact has lessened with the decades or is it more relevant than ever?

Please feel free to start your own points for discussion at any time.

[ZorPrime]

Hello every sci-fi lovers,

I've read this book last year in another reading groups. For me, the book was interesting at first (100-150 pages) but at the end, I had mixed feelings about this one. My biggest problem was that I can't beleive the human society would go down so low and religion be so strong. I mean, in this book it looks like the human is back to square one in science (and probably in others stuff too). Can this really happens ? I think it is quite improbable.

So the novel impact is lessened because of that and not because a real threat of Cold War is not there, IMO.

There was good and funny character in this book. And I really liked that start... but it was too religious for my taste at the end.

Anyway, my verdict on this book is that it is an average-good book and I've seen better ones.

Eric

[Ladijen]

I read this book the last weekend of last month, right after it was chosen. Now, after a few weeks, I hope that I remember everything!

To start off with the initial discussion topic, yes, I do think that the impact has lessened somewhat with distance from the days of the Cold War. That fear, very new and immediate, is no longer such a part of life as it was once. However, while not starkly terrifying anymore, I think that the tale still has a sort of melancholy, bleak, chill. Even though nuclear war is not the panic-inducing threat it was, it is still a possibility. People know more about it and have been living with this knowledge for a long time, but despite desensitization, the topic is still terrifying.

The religion bothered me a bit, too, but the degeneration of society to such a degree seems plausible. It would depend on the extent of the destruction. If all of the major cities and learning institutions were completely annihilated, if all of the services and products were gone, if most of the people were gone (particularly those with knowledge of how to make and build), then yes, I don't think it would take long before society (what was left, anyway) devolved to an earlier state. And when people are poor and hungry and have little hope, religion can be a solace.

The characters were very rich, indeed. And I was particularly intrigued by the idea of a Lazarus, still waiting. (If I understood that part correctly.)

I will say, that reading the "sequel" doesn't appeal to me...has anyone else read it? I don't think that this story needs anything more.

[Crazy Eddie]

I have read the sequel (St Leibowitz and the Wild Horse Women) and while it isn't quite as bad as the reviews would have you belive, you really need to read Canticle first, I don't think it works as a stand alone novel very well. Being set in a single point of time it dosn't have Canticles sense of deep history, which I think is that book's strongest point.

[AlienLogic]

I quite enjoyed this book, even if I found the ending quite depressing. It seems that humanity will not learn from its mistakes.

I was quite shocked when Brother Francis was killed at the end of part one, I thought he was going to be the main character throughout the book!

I thought it was quite concievable that humanity would degenerate to such an extent when you take into account the "simplification" where knowledge was blamed and distroyed.

Although I'm not religious, I quite enjoyed the religious aspects and found the way Miller showed different attitudes interesting eg Dom Zerchi attitude to suicide, the thought of pain being the only evil and only society deciding on right and wrong both being heresies. That said at times I thought the theological thoughts etc dragged on for too long.

Although the cold war no longer exists, I found the selection of this book for June very timely and relevant. While I was reading it, the news was showing the conflict between India and pakistan and the concerns of nuclear war. I remember watching the TV news and seeing the Indian and Pakistani leaders downplaying the threat and questioning where the idea that nuclear arms would be used had come from. I thought to myself good! there is little chance of nuclear weapons being used. Then later when reading the book (same day or a couple of days later) I read the section where the Guam conference recesses but both sides are putting a positive spin on it, however the Pope ceases to pray for peace and has a "time of war" mass indicating things are not at all well. I then thought of the foreign diplomats etc still leaving India and Pakistan and suddenly I was concerned again!

I will confess my ignorance I had to look up "canticle" in the dictionary to work out what the title was about.

All up I thought this was an interesting book that made me think with very good, interesting characters in it.

[AlienLogic]

A couple of questions, as I am not particularly religious and was not sure if was seeing the full significance of the following.

What was the significance of Lazarus?

Was Lazarus looking for a person without original sin?

Are these two items in the Christian and/or Jewish tradition?

Thanks

[Ladijen]

Alien Logic--

I'm not religious at all, but I've done a bit of research (for a comic book idea) in the past.

I may be wrong, but I thought that Lazarus was still waiting for the messiah. However, I still cannot quite decide between two ideas. Either he was waiting for the second coming (in the Christian tradition) or he was waiting for the real messiah (Judaism). [In the latter case, I can't remember the name of the messiah who is supposed to return.] So either the nuclear war that had occured was not Armaggedon (sp?), or it was but he (Lazarus) has not yet found the messiah....

Actually, now that I write this, I see that I am still pretty confused about this aspect of the story.

[vortexreader]

Finally finished it! I should say the delay in finishing this months title was definitely not because I didn't like it but because of the usual distractions in life.

I'm just going to add a couple of comments now and more later on when I have a bit of time...

Firstly, it's not hard to see why this book has become a major classic of the genre. The writing is superb and engrossing. As is the story. I disagree with some of the other comments that doubt that mankind could fall so low. It's only been in the last few hundred years that we've attained most of the knowledge we now take for granted. Why shouldn't we then lose it just as quickly if society collapses?

As seems to be the case with a couple of other commentators, I'm not at all religious either. But this didn't stop me from enjoying the novel, or detract from the story (as was the case with The Sparrow). Like it or not, over the centuries the churches have been the repositories of a great deal of knowledge and the sources of a great deal of invention. It seem perfectly plausible to me that the churches should play such a major role.

I think the final third of the novel is actually the weakest part. It seemed less realised and more rushed than the preceding sections. Anyone else have an opinion?

[fortytwo]

Still reading....

[fortytwo]

Well it took a little longer than I expected but I blame the World Cup for that.
It’s quite a few years since I last read A Canticle…..so I couldn’t remember much about it except that I had good feelings about it when I heard it was up for discussion.
I ‘ve only just finished it so I thought I would give my first impressions and possibly respond again when others have posted.
I feel that the story started better than it finished although I enjoyed all three parts.
Obviously the main theme is the Nuclear Holocaust that occurred 600 years previous to the start of Fiat Homo and the question was asked how relevant the novel is today. I think it is as relevant today as it was when it was written.(1959?)
In the last couple of months India and Pakistan have been squaring up to one another for example, and I’m sure that it would not be confined to their part of the world. The Cold War involved the USSR and the West but since the breakup of the USSR many tons of radioactive material in the former satellites of Russia have gone missing. There are some cash rich countries in the Middle East who could easily buy the material and expertise to make a Nuclear Device. There could easily be a score of countries with the ability to start the next “Flame Deluge”.
Although the novel deals with a serious subject Miller managed to get quite a bit of humour into the story (at the beginning anyway) and I feel I missed some of it by not having any experience of Roman Catholicism ,and very little of religion .Was the pilgrim the wandering jew for instance?
I have run out of time now but I hope I can contribute again some time.

[estranghero]

Still in the process of reading it...

However, the impression I'm getting isn't really about the after-effects of nuclear holocaust but of the knowledge and its pursuit. What do you guys think?

[estranghero]

Well, finally finished the book. Though I thought it would be boring (and some parts were dragging), it was a pretty good read and felt strange after the ending. Only a few books could do that to me.

However, looking at the previous posts, I think that 'A Canticle of Leibowitz' is more than just about nuclear holocaust and religion, and so much more can be mined from this book.

Let me just post my thoughts here:

IMO ACoL is a question about the conflicting duality of man and tries to determine what makes man human (to borrow a question from Philip K. Dick).

Just from the top of my head: (1)the science of man vs. the supernatural world and (2) man's stupid appetite for destruction vs. man's futile attempts for nobility.

The question of Lazarus, the wandering Jew, is part of the supernatural world (i.e. the unknown) as it questions the idea of an immortal being in a world where nothing is forever (as evidenced by the 2 succeeding nuclear holocausts). Another 'unknowable' is the idea of Mrs. Grale and Rachel, the 1st innocent born without original sin.

A lot of these themes went through my mind and which I can't find the words to put down into this post after I finished reading the book. Moreso it was hard to describe my feelings as I thought about Francis, Abbot Zerchi, the Poet, Thon Thaddeo, and the rest of the characters.

Now I know why this was regarded as science fiction classic....

[Tamlin]

I, too, read this book years ago, and remember enjoying it immensely. It got me reading post-acopalypse novels like The Postman by David Brin, and A Gift Upon The Shore, by M.K. Wren. The latter novel I particularly enjoyed because it was from a woman's point of view. But both have chilling scenarios of what could happen when we lose all of our society's niceties, and eventually lose our society itself. Are there any other similar books you could recommend?

[Pirate Jenn]

Well...as I just finished reading this

To start: as someone who went to Sunday School as a child,
I know the Lazarus story. Lazarus was the brother of Martha and Mary Magdaline--all of them good friends with Jesus. Lazarus died and Jesus raised him from the dead. In the Christian faith, people expect bodily ressurection and immortality via Jesus. So...the logic of it goes that, as Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, then he is already immortal. Lazarus, of course, was a Jew (as was Jesus).

I don't understand all of what Miller did with this, however. Not all of Eleazar's actions fit with this story. :: shrug::

Oh and, in Christianity, Jesus was born without sin. I've yet to work out the theological ramifications of a mutated boil forming out of a woman's shoulder, a boil that becomes human, sinless, and everything else that goes along with it. Miller must've had a point. :: scratching head::

Anyhow... all of that aside.
I enjoyed the book. Part Three seemed to rush toward the 'inevitable' nuclear disaster.

I liked the lack of tension between science and religion. It was, after all, the monks who kept learning alive and conducted experiments during the 'dark' ages--it makes sense.

I agree that there are more nuggets than those derived from the cold war: the death camps, the way true events become distorted over time, ways in which rules of conduct promote civilization...

I probably won't read the sequel. There aren't any characters left to enjoy and, with each section, I felt that I was starting over. This was a useful method for telling this story, but I'm not interested in more of it.

[estranghero]

Originally posted by Pirate Jenn
Well...as I just finished reading this

To start: as someone who went to Sunday School as a child,
I know the Lazarus story. Lazarus was the brother of Martha and Mary Magdaline--all of them good friends with Jesus. Lazarus died and Jesus raised him from the dead. In the Christian faith, people expect bodily ressurection and immortality via Jesus. So...the logic of it goes that, as Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, then he is already immortal. Lazarus, of course, was a Jew (as was Jesus).

I don't understand all of what Miller did with this, however. Not all of Eleazar's actions fit with this story. :: shrug::

Oh and, in Christianity, Jesus was born without sin. I've yet to work out the theological ramifications of a mutated boil forming out of a woman's shoulder, a boil that becomes human, sinless, and everything else that goes along with it. Miller must've had a point. :: scratching head::

Anyhow... all of that aside.
I enjoyed the book. Part Three seemed to rush toward the 'inevitable' nuclear disaster.

I liked the lack of tension between science and religion. It was, after all, the monks who kept learning alive and conducted experiments during the 'dark' ages--it makes sense.

I agree that there are more nuggets than those derived from the cold war: the death camps, the way true events become distorted over time, ways in which rules of conduct promote civilization...

I probably won't read the sequel. There aren't any characters left to enjoy and, with each section, I felt that I was starting over. This was a useful method for telling this story, but I'm not interested in more of it.

Too true, PJ. Though maybe what Miller wrote didn't have to fit in the story and just stands 'as is'?

On the other hand, maybe that was the whole point of Miller, that the innocent 'without-a-sin' comes from man like Eve sprang from Adam's rib?