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  1. #1
    Humble Grifter Luya Sevrein's Avatar
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    Exclamation Our world has problems. [BAD BOOKS]

    Bella [TWILIGHT] might be the most depressing teenage role-model since Reese Witherspoon in Legally Blonde. But 130 minutes of her moping and Taylor Lautner's abs made twice as much money ($142,839,137) in one weekend as Funny People and Zombieland's total box-office combined.
    I don't understand why alot of people - not just young adults - seem to have completely gone off the rails and simply love swooning over pathetic romances, bland, unbuilt characters and makeshift vampires?

    I have nothing against Urban Fantasy books, even Young Adult ones. It's just a genre. A genre that is getting punched in the face.

    I have nothing against crappy Romance books. They are fun for some people, they are escapism. But they should not be able to be held up as the GREATEST WORK OF LITERATURE EVUR.

    I tried searching Fantasy on Amazon, all I wanted were great, interesting books and classics. All I get is Twilight, Twilight, Twilight and something about '_____ was an ordinary girl. No one loved her. BUT THEN A VAMPIRE DID.'

    Bad issues, bad romances, are all right in books if handled with some kind of overview and knowledge. Not glorified.

    How can we teach people what good writing, good characters are? How can we change this?

  2. #2
    Registered User Roland 85's Avatar
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    You can't. Sturgeon's law applies not only to literature, but to the people who read it as well.

  3. #3
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    Careful Luya, if you don't like Twilight there is a serious possibility of KatG dropping a wall of text on your head

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luya Sevrein View Post




    How can we teach people what good writing, good characters are? How can we change this?

    Not coming over preachy and elitist would be a good start. If people want to read yet another supernatural romance for (heaven forbid) entertainment then so what , It's not as if the popularity of Urban/Supernatural fantasy is stopping people reading or writing better novels , so why the snobbish attitude that it is somehow important to stop people reading books like Twilight.

    I have never ever seen anyone claim Supernatural romances are somehow 'best literature eva' , I doubt that anyone actually thinks they are . I have no idea why you think we need to teach these people what good writing or characterisation is, or why you think that your personal opinion on what makes a good book should have on what the general populace reads for fun.

  5. #5
    Registered User Roland 85's Avatar
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    Actually, the Twilight army DOES think Twilight is the best literature eva, but that's only because for most of them it is the ONLY literature they've ever read.

    And although Rulkez has a point, it is not completely valid to me. Yes, obviously if people want to read ****, it's their prerogative to do so, but publishers have a moral obligation to not only supply product, but also... educate the culture of readership. And it is also not entirely true that spewing Urban/Supernatural fantasy is not stopping people from reading or writing better novels. Because to publish all that quantity of "loved by a vampire" crap, you need to NOT publish other stuff. And good books generally sell less than bad ones, simplistic and absurd as it sounds...

  6. #6
    Humble Grifter Luya Sevrein's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rulkez View Post
    Not coming over preachy and elitist would be a good start. If people want to read yet another supernatural romance for (heaven forbid) entertainment then so what , It's not as if the popularity of Urban/Supernatural fantasy is stopping people reading or writing better novels , so why the snobbish attitude that it is somehow important to stop people reading books like Twilight.

    I have never ever seen anyone claim Supernatural romances are somehow 'best literature eva' , I doubt that anyone actually thinks they are . I have no idea why you think we need to teach these people what good writing or characterisation is, or why you think that your personal opinion on what makes a good book should have on what the general populace reads for fun.
    I agree with Roland, he got what I'm trying to say there.

    I really don't think you should accuse someone of being snobbish when you have misunderstood what they are saying. Or, just don't accuse anyone of anything and keep debate to the subject.

    I understand why it's popular. I can get that people like easy reads and escapism. I don't like, however, that people look up to this and think it is THE BEST EVUH. I don't like that people who, at one point, were considered good sources for literature fuel the fire and agree. Educated people praise these books. Educated people say 'This is the modern Romeo and Juliet!' Unless they are trollin' and mean it ironically (as R&J was a parody and all), it's madness. -Braces-

    It's like me saying the 'Wind Singer' series are the best fantasy books ever written. I loved them when I was a pre-teen. But they are just easy reads.

    Stephen King gets what I'm trying to say.

  7. #7
    I should be working metalprof's Avatar
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    Substitute popular music for popular books and this is not a new complaint. How could anyone claim the Beatles were the best music eva when they could be listening to Mozart?

    This is probably not new even for books. I'll bet some people complained about other people liking all that new Shakespeare (later Dickens, later Twain, later Tolkien) crap when there was so much better stuff out there.

    Rather than trying to correct the choices of people based on what they choose to read, I'd rather have them more properly phrase their response to the works. If fans of Twilight really did intend to claim that those books are the pinnacle of literature, then I'd have to dump a bowl of mashed potatoes on their heads. But if they (hopefully more correctly) stated that they enjoyed those books more than any others they'd ever read, then I'd be happy for them that they found something they liked so much, even if I don't share their enthusiasm.

    It would be nice if shelf space was more evenly distributed between the popular stuff and the "more proper" stuff, so that the latest fads don't shade out more substantial works, but that's not how economics works.

    I'll optimistically consider the Twilight phenomenon to be, hopefully also like the Harry Potter phenomenon, the "gateway drug" to better reading. If someone discovers a love for books by being introduced to them through the Twilight books, is that so bad?

    Ken

  8. #8
    Registered User Roland 85's Avatar
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    Problem is that Beatles were amazing for what their goals were. So is Harry Potter and so is Tolkien. Not so with Twilight. It is just mediocre, EVEN as a supernatural romance novel...

  9. #9
    Registered User dragonangel517's Avatar
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    I don't know about everyone else, but I read fiction for entertainment. I read the first two books of the Twilight series, decided it was not for me, and moved on. It was too YA for me. As are the Harry Potter books. But I watch the movies, mainly for the special effects.

    I see the popularity of Twilight as a good thing. Girls are READING, which is never a bad thing. Look around this site at all the people who are writing, again, not a bad thing. It gives hope to all wanna be authors-especially those that write fantasy- that a publisher just might actually read their manuscript.

    I have never understood how someone can equate popular with bad. There are lots of popular things I don't like, but someone does, or else they would not be popular. Doesn't mean they are bad, just that I don't like them.

    Someone once said variety is the spice of life. I agree.

  10. #10
    Registered User DelphicRaven's Avatar
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    I got into a similar discussion with someone a few days ago who works in a bookstore. He had a great point on the whole topic. He said that he views the trend of Twilight and etc as a good thing because at least people are reading and from those books he can recommend other similar authors and slowly get them to explore genres, authors and books they never would have before.

    I'm not a Twilight fan, but I can see his point and I agree with previous posters, at least people are reading.

  11. #11
    Registered User Roland 85's Avatar
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    It is a false point I fear. It arises every time a book happens to turn into pop-culture trend. Yes, people are reading, but just like with Dan Brown, A) people are readinc crap, and B) 99.99% of them will never read another book in their life, or if they do, it will be the next pop-culture trend.

    I think the best thing about the Harry Potter books is the fact that they were good literature as well as pop-culture trend, and since they were targeted at the general YA audience (not the "I'm a lonely female desparate for attention" audience), they actually DID get a lot of kids into reading. I seriously doubt Brown or Meyer could boast any such thing.

  12. #12
    Humble Grifter Luya Sevrein's Avatar
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    The point I'm trying to make is that, while everyone has the right to chose, and while I basically agree that it is a symbol of hope... That should not equal the pathetic amounts of praise they are getting.

    It's like we've reached a stage where we're so happy someone's reading we'll praise anything just to keep up the hype. I don't think that's healthy even though people disagree.

  13. #13
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    So where are these people who claim that Twilight is great literature ?

    It's a strawman set up by people with some axe to grind with the series. No one really thinks that it is the height of literary achievement, certainly no one who should be taken seriously. The idea that publishers have literary works of genius sitting gathering dust on their desks because they want to publish the next Twilight clone is also absurd. Those literary novels that only a few read only get published because Vampire romance #394580327 sold a bazzilion copies and funded it.

    I don't understand why people feel the need to make " how can we save {insert fanbase of popular media here} from their stupidity " threads. These people are reading books, if they are reading them solely because its a pop-culture thing then so what , if they never read another book then who cares . These titles allow the publishers to take a chance on new authors and niche title.

    Your 'point' such as it is , is that you don't like Twilight, you cant stand the praise it gets , and you're getting a little upset because some faceless name on the inturw3bs compared some "serious literature" to sparkly vampire fic ?

    Personally I think people who get really upset over the latest pop-culture craze and the people who read/listen/play whatever the product is have more issues than the grubby commoners they want to educate.

    but publishers have a moral obligation to not only supply product, but also... educate the culture of readership
    *looks for the speechless emote*

  14. #14
    Humble Grifter Luya Sevrein's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rulkez View Post
    So where are these people who claim that Twilight is great literature ?

    It's a strawman set up by people with some axe to grind with the series. No one really thinks that it is the height of literary achievement, certainly no one who should be taken seriously. The idea that publishers have literary works of genius sitting gathering dust on their desks because they want to publish the next Twilight clone is also absurd. Those literary novels that only a few read only get published because Vampire romance #394580327 sold a bazzilion copies and funded it.
    Not the point, again.

    Many amazing books have come out along WITH Twilight. Books that get no where near as much praise.

    It depends on taste. Yet, I'm sure most people agree that to have a decent novel you need some kind of PLOT and definable characters.

    If you want to know people who claim it is amazing, check anyone who panders to pre-teen girls and middle-aged women as well as people who were, at some point, authorities of literature.

    Check most of the magazines, NY Bestseller list and reviews, TIME Magazine, Reader's Digest, various multimedia news broadcasts. Even little sheets in libraries which say 'TWILIGHT, THE LITERARY PHENOMENON.'

    Quote Originally Posted by Rulkez View Post
    I don't understand why people feel the need to make " how can we save {insert fanbase of popular media here} from their stupidity " threads. These people are reading books, if they are reading them solely because its a pop-culture thing then so what , if they never read another book then who cares . These titles allow the publishers to take a chance on new authors and niche title.
    So the main argument is 'Heck, these people are reading!'

    'But they'll never read again...'

    'So what?'

    Is that not a contridiction?

    Okay, look, the way it is. If you have no friends, at all, if all you want is to be part of a social circle, and thus you accsept the first group of people to want you it doesn't make it right. They might still be shallow, petty, useing assholes.

    I'm just, personally, not a person to accept things because 'at least you've got friends/at least they're reading.'

    Quote Originally Posted by Rulkez View Post
    Your 'point' such as it is , is that you don't like Twilight, you cant stand the praise it gets , and you're getting a little upset because some faceless name on the inturw3bs compared some "serious literature" to sparkly vampire fic ?
    Yes, yes that was it! I'm glad I have you here to tell me what I think.

    Since you're beggining to put 3s in your speech and telling me what I think, I'm'a stop now.

    If you want to get leetist about it then you should know, Consequences will never be the same.

  15. #15
    Interesting discussion here and I would agree with the op to a point if Twilight WASN'T the greatest series that's ever come out; I consider myself fortunate to live in a time where books like that get the praise and attention they truly deserve.
    I can't think of any other author (alive or dead, and not just fantasy) that comes even close to whoever wrote twilight in terms of beauty of prose and plot depth.

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