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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Roland 85 View Post
    Btw, just for the record - of course I have exceedingly low opinion of people who like Terry Goodkind, unless they're completely inexperienced in the genre. Why on Earth would I respect someone who could like such bad writing? It makes no sense whatsoever.

    That is, if anybody was left who didn't think I'm pretentious ^_^

    Oh yeah, forgot - THIS IS MY OPINION!!! (lalalala)

    Yet I know Goodkind fans who like Hemingway, Dante, Proust, Homer, Tolkein, Martin, Vance, Pratchett, Bester, Lynch and other literary greats in and out of the genre. Yet if they just said they liked Vance or just said they liked Hemingway, the pigeonholing wouldn't happen.

    But hey, gotta love those with that exceedingly high opinion of themselves and overly inflated ego. 'I like REAL fantasy, so my opinion means oh so much'. Always makes me laugh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparrow View Post
    It's been my experience that those people who feel so strongly about Terry and appreciate his work so darn much are also Ayn Rand zombies... you're not one of those, are you?
    Ahhhh, there's that pigeonholing again. I'm a Rand fan too, I'll happily admit (though I liked Goodkind long before I had heard of her) but there are a ton of diehard fans who have barely any idea who Rand is.
    Last edited by Gizmo; August 27th, 2010 at 03:20 AM.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gizmo View Post
    Ahhhh, there's that pigeonholing again. I'm a Rand fan too, I'll happily admit (though I liked Goodkind long before I had heard of her) but there are a ton of diehard fans who have barely any idea who Rand is.

    Whether they're aware of it or not if they take to Goodkind they've unwittingly crawled up Ms.Rand's keister in the process. In fact you can't possibly understand why Terry writes what he writes unless you accept the unholy union of the two. It's that soulless approach to life that allows Terry to write soulless books full of soulless characters doing soulless things to further their own soulless objectives.

    Terry isn't writing fantasy stories so much as he's indoctrinating people into his circle of beliefs. The reason some of us so detest his writing, and also other writers in the fantasy and science fiction genre who accept the teachings of that Russian witch, is because we find Objectivism to be a close kin to a cult... and even if we found Objectivism to be tolerable the guy still can't write.
    Last edited by Sparrow; August 27th, 2010 at 07:39 AM.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparrow View Post
    Whether they're aware of it or not if they take to Goodkind they've unwittingly crawled up Ms.Rand's keister in the process. In fact you can't possibly understand why Terry writes what he writes unless you accept the unholy union of the two.
    Better tell that to the left wingers I know who are fans of Goodkind.
    Better tell that to the religious folk who are fans of Goodkind.
    Better tell that to those apathetic to politics/philosophy that are fans of Goodkind. Nice try though.

  4. #64
    Registered User Roland 85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gizmo View Post
    Yet I know Goodkind fans who like Hemingway, Dante, Proust, Homer, Tolkein, Martin, Vance, Pratchett, Bester, Lynch and other literary greats in and out of the genre. Yet if they just said they liked Vance or just said they liked Hemingway, the pigeonholing wouldn't happen.

    But hey, gotta love those with that exceedingly high opinion of themselves and overly inflated ego. 'I like REAL fantasy, so my opinion means oh so much'. Always makes me laugh.
    Laugh then, by all means. I laugh at self-righteous indignation, so it's a veritable laugh-fest.

    Meanwhile, I've seen more than one "Miss something" that REALLY loved Dostoevsky. Those zesty beauty queens just can't get enough of their 19th century Russian philosophers ^_^ I'm sure with time and patience you'll get what I'm implying here. As a general rule, I tend to judge people based on the least intelligent things they love. That is usually more accurate, as it's easy enough to "like" a good book for the wrong/superficial reasons. I mean, I like me some crap as well, but I'd be the first to tell you it's crap, and I wouldn't go all stick-in-the-butt enraged by someone stating that.

    Oh, and btw, I've never read anything by Rand, and I do intend to. I could care less about Goodkind's reasons for writing ****, and he sure ain't gonna make me hate one of the most influential writers of the 20th century just by virtue of being bad.
    Last edited by Roland 85; August 27th, 2010 at 07:50 AM.

  5. #65
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    @ Gizmo - just because someone hasn't heard of Rand doesn't mean the objectivism of Goodkind isn't part of the appeal. Of course there are exceptions to the rule but in my experience there is a fairly strong correlation between Goodkind fans and objectivists. I would argue the books are so controversial on fan forums because they are so political. I don't think a mere matter of literary taste could bring the polemical vitriol that we find in Goodkind threads. This also serves to explain why some people enjoy Goodkind as well as more literary fare (although I've yet to meet anyone myself that enjoys Wolfe or Vance in addition to Goodkind). For many, there exists no more repugnant a philosophy than Objectivism, while for others that perspective lies at the heart of their most fundamental world-view and values. It is no wonder, then, when the debate gets heated over a book in which such an ideology is the explicit purpose of the writing. The fact that the writing is clumsy is secondary.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gizmo View Post
    Better tell that to the left wingers I know who are fans of Goodkind.
    Better tell that to the religious folk who are fans of Goodkind.
    Better tell that to those apathetic to politics/philosophy that are fans of Goodkind. Nice try though.

    Fake Liberals.
    Fake Christians.
    And who cares about intellectual slackers anyways.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Roland 85 View Post
    Meanwhile, I've seen more than one "Miss something" that REALLY loved Dostoevsky. Those zesty beauty queens just can't get enough of their 19th century Russian philosophers ^_^ I'm sure with time and patience you'll get what I'm implying here. As a general rule, I tend to judge people based on the least intelligent things they love. That is usually more accurate, as it's easy enough to "like" a good book for the wrong/superficial reasons. I mean, I like me some crap as well, but I'd be the first to tell you it's crap, and I wouldn't go all stick-in-the-butt enraged by someone stating that.

    Ah of course, the Goodkind fans who like the other literary greats like it because of superficial reasons.
    If only they were the bastion of intellectualism and literary integrity such as yourself...


    Quote Originally Posted by mshnd06 View Post
    @ Gizmo - just because someone hasn't heard of Rand doesn't mean the objectivism of Goodkind isn't part of the appeal. Of course there are exceptions to the rule but in my experience there is a fairly strong correlation between Goodkind fans and objectivists. I would argue the books are so controversial on fan forums because they are so political. I don't think a mere matter of literary taste could bring the polemical vitriol that we find in Goodkind threads. This also serves to explain why some people enjoy Goodkind as well as more literary fare (although I've yet to meet anyone myself that enjoys Wolfe or Vance in addition to Goodkind). For many, there exists no more repugnant a philosophy than Objectivism, while for others that perspective lies at the heart of their most fundamental world-view and values. It is no wonder, then, when the debate gets heated over a book in which such an ideology is the explicit purpose of the writing. The fact that the writing is clumsy is secondary.
    Don't get me wrong, there are many Objectivists that like Goodkind, and that appeal is no doubt there and I do not doubt that there are Goodkind fans that rile up criticism because of their world views. But the looking down upon Goodkind fans by some doesn't just happen to those types, it happens to many who just like the books for what they are.

    And @bolded: you've just met one. I don't claim Goodkind is a great writer (but i already said earlier in the topic I won't get into a debate about the merits of his actual writing) and he's no Vance for sure. But I'm capable of enjoying both for different reasons.

  8. #68
    Registered User Roland 85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gizmo View Post
    Ah of course, the Goodkind fans who like the other literary greats like it because of superficial reasons.
    If only they were the bastion of intellectualism and literary integrity such as yourself...
    I am trying to understand why you're not aware of how juvenile these attempts at sarcasm are, but I simply can't. Yes, this is exactly right - people who could think that Goodkind's writing is anything but crap, do not have the necessary knowledge and literary awareness to appreciate better writers. It is as simple as that, and has nothing to do with me and what kind of "bastion" I am. Now, if they consider the poor guy just a form of guilty pleasure - then fine. But i don't call such people "fans", and they sure as hell wouldn't go into the self-righteous hilarity that you've been spewing so far.

  9. #69
    In before the thread close.

    You folks might want to look into how to discuss conflicting opinions without slandering each other or belittling other's opinions. It is a skill.

    Funny stuff though.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Roland 85 View Post
    I am trying to understand why you're not aware of how juvenile these attempts at sarcasm are, but I simply can't. Yes, this is exactly right - people who could think that Goodkind's writing is anything but crap, do not have the necessary knowledge and literary awareness to appreciate better writers. It is as simple as that, and has nothing to do with me and what kind of "bastion" I am. Now, if they consider the poor guy just a form of guilty pleasure - then fine. But i don't call such people "fans", and they sure as hell wouldn't go into the self-righteous hilarity that you've been spewing so far.
    You make the assumption that Goodkind fans can't appreciate better writers or that they think that Goodkind is a literary great. I'm a Goodkind fan, do I think he is amazing? No. Do I think he is as good as a Vance or Bradbury? No. Can my appreciation differentiate between them all and still enjoy them all? Yes.

    The bolded part is pure crap. I've already said there are fans that like Goodkind and think he's a decent enough writer, but who also love some literary giants. You can tell yourself they like those writers for 'superficial reasons' and some might, but plenty don't and considering you don't know most of these people, your wild assumptions are little more then pathetic. But keep on thinking your subjective opinion is law of the land, pal, I'm sure it massages your ego nicely.
    Last edited by Gizmo; August 27th, 2010 at 11:56 AM.

  11. #71
    Supercalifragilistic teahupoo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roland 85 View Post
    . Yes, this is exactly right - people who could think that Goodkind's writing is anything but crap, do not have the necessary knowledge and literary awareness to appreciate better writers. It is as simple as that, and has nothing to do with me and what kind of "bastion" I am.
    The ignorance of this statement brings ignorance to heights undreamed of. A benchmark has been set here today.

    You have to be a troll. How could anyone really think like this. So, i can't in my right mind respond to any of your future comments. I took the bait this time, it won't happen again. Unless you were joking. If you were joking...ignore this comment.

    And to be clear, I am not saying you are ignorant, I am saying that statement is ignorant.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparrow View Post
    Whether they're aware of it or not if they take to Goodkind they've unwittingly crawled up Ms.Rand's keister in the process. In fact you can't possibly understand why Terry writes what he writes unless you accept the unholy union of the two. It's that soulless approach to life that allows Terry to write soulless books full of soulless characters doing soulless things to further their own soulless objectives.

    Terry isn't writing fantasy stories so much as he's indoctrinating people into his circle of beliefs. The reason some of us so detest his writing, and also other writers in the fantasy and science fiction genre who accept the teachings of that Russian witch, is because we find Objectivism to be a close kin to a cult... and even if we found Objectivism to be tolerable the guy still can't write.
    Right..... You realize your argument has really lost all credibility right? This is why I love the Goodkind threads, it brings out all the political wackos and conspiracy theorists. Goodkind and his books appear to be a lighting rod for you guys.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland 85 View Post
    I am trying to understand why you're not aware of how juvenile these attempts at sarcasm are, but I simply can't. Yes, this is exactly right - people who could think that Goodkind's writing is anything but crap, do not have the necessary knowledge and literary awareness to appreciate better writers. It is as simple as that, and has nothing to do with me and what kind of "bastion" I am. Now, if they consider the poor guy just a form of guilty pleasure - then fine. But i don't call such people "fans", and they sure as hell wouldn't go into the self-righteous hilarity that you've been spewing so far.
    I love it when the fanatics like yourself as well as others in here make complete asses of themselves. Your arguments are swallowed up by your own silly prejudices. I can't believe any fan of fantasy of all genres would attempt to elevate himself above other fantasy fans because he thinks he reads "superior" fantasy works and those that don't are beneath him. There are literally a world of ppl out there who feel the same way about people who read fantasy of any kind no matter who wrote it. See the irony? lol. Time to get off your soap box and get back to your shine box.
    Last edited by Pvt; August 27th, 2010 at 11:25 AM.

  13. #73
    For some reason I'm getting this feeling that most of these people arguing about the ignorance and prejudices and all that nonsense and the sheer awesomeness that is Terry Goodkind have not really read any of his... "work". It's like you are defending something for the sake of defending it.
    Maybe I just have a hard time coming up with a different reason as to why anyone would be doing it. /shrug
    I may be wrong though and I'm sure one of the "fans" will conveniently point that out for me.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by kirk View Post
    For some reason I'm getting this feeling that most of these people arguing about the ignorance and prejudices and all that nonsense and the sheer awesomeness that is Terry Goodkind have not really read any of his... "work". It's like you are defending something for the sake of defending it.
    Maybe I just have a hard time coming up with a different reason as to why anyone would be doing it. /shrug
    I may be wrong though and I'm sure one of the "fans" will conveniently point that out for me.
    @bolded: yes, because we've all been spouting how amazing he is and how sunshine pops out of his bottom.

    I've read all of SoT. There, answered that for you.

  15. #75
    the Rake
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    Actually, PvT, Goodkind has said that he isn't writing fantasy stories (not to mention implying that he is above the genre) and certainly implies that the books are allegory.

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