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  1. #601
    the Thirsty thirstyVan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeru View Post
    You know, you could Photoshop that so the pinky was up as well, and it would change the entire thing.
    Haha! Good idea, but I don't have photoshop skillz

  2. #602
    Quote Originally Posted by dsw13 View Post
    MY posts about MY misgivings or criticisms are based on MY opinions. As only I can know what MY opinions are, I am the only one qualified to state that MY previous posts have adequately set forth as much. Thus, as to any and all debate concerning the proper expression of MY opinions, I declare myself the winner.

    3rdI, at least as far as my posts go, you are confusing discussion with debate. It might very well be that others have posted criticisms as if they are the gospel, but I bent over backwards to do no such thing. There can be no doubt that you like the book more than me. However, I still like the book.

    Neither of us is right or wrong. As a critique is, by its very nature, subjective, the only thing that can even be possibly open to "debate" is whether a criticism is unfair. If you think my points were unfair, that's fine too. However, you don't automatically win that debate simply because you've posted your opinion more often than I've posted mine or because other reviewers tend to agree with you. All it means is that I'm in the minority, not that my points are unfair.

    It would be unfair, for example, if I dismissed your opinions by stating that you simply look at these books through rose colored glasses. For instance, I noticed in a recent thread on Red Seas Under Red Skies that you had problems with the portrayal of female characters in that book. Without further explanation, that would appear to be an unfair criticism. However, you provided more detail and, whether I agree with your opinion or not, I believe it was made in good faith. Thus, it wasn't unfair. You apparently don't have any such issues with the portrayal of the female Adem. Is that an unfair lack of criticism? Before getting defensive or telling me that the Adem are different, I don't think you're being unfair in any event. I think that you so enjoy this work that, even if you fairly could have the same issues as with Lynch's book, you were so captivated by the story that it didn't concern you. Those aren't rose colored glasses and there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, I am genuinely happy for anyone who gets such enjoyment from a piece of literature, whether I share the same affinity or not.

    I'm not trying to ruffle your feathers or attack you in any way, but am just trying to illustrate that one would have to be pretty far out there in giving an opinion for it to amount to an unfair criticism, and I haven't really seen much of that in this thread. And, bringing it back around again, if a critique is not unfair, it's just a subjective opinion, which is not open to debate.
    Actually I have mentioned before that I found the Adem humorous. It didn't surprise me given that Pat is a feminist. He advises the local feminist group at university in Stevens Point. I simply took it with a grain of salt. I understood what he was trying to get at in terms of character development. The difference is that Rothfuss doesn't portray ALL of his female characters in such a manner. Lynch's female characters all feel like the same character and as such lack depth. There is a level of realism that I need present to appreciate a story even in a genre such as fantasy. A good example of this is magic systems. Pat's magic system is one of the best I have read. He took a scientific approach when designing his magic system which gives it a sense of believability when viewed within the framework of the story.
    Last edited by 3rdI; April 15th, 2011 at 02:34 PM.

  3. #603
    Quote Originally Posted by 3rdI View Post
    Pat's magic system is one of the best I have read. He took a scientific approach when designing his magic system which gives it a sense of believability when viewed within the framework of the story.
    On this we agree.

  4. #604
    ...................
    Last edited by 3rdI; April 15th, 2011 at 06:20 PM. Reason: off topic

  5. #605
    Supercalifragilistic teahupoo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erfael View Post

    I think some people are reading this book for what they hope will come. I think others are reading it for the history that's slowly being revealed. I think others find the subversions interesting. Others like the idea of a fantasy autobiography.
    Throughout this whole post you find the need to herd people into groups of why and why not's. Why? That you think you can categorize why people feel they do about it....well I just can't figure that out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erfael View Post
    But I do agree with thirstyVan on something important: It's a novel. Whatever other things Pat's trying to do with it, it should be a good read. And I find that, for the most part, it is. But I don't think it's perfect...or even the best thing I've read this year.
    It seems you and thirsty have cracked the case. Your proof is unquestionable. You both deserve congratulations. Someone should Email this to Patrick post-haste He has the right to know that he has failed in writing an autobiography.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erfael View Post
    One more thought on the autobiography and what-to-tell thing: Real autobiographies don't tell every little thing that happens to a person. They just can't. There's not enough paper to go into that much detail. But the things they choose are things that are important to them...the things they feel shaped them. But they do usually tell why they felt something shaped them. Taking the Felurian section that dsw13 mentioned in his edit above (go check it out if you haven't), a problem I can see readers having with it is not only the one I mentioned where Kvothe seems to lose himself a little but also the fact that there's no effort made to connect it forward, to take things from that into later sections. We don't see how that shaped him (not to say that we won't later). But as it stands, without feeling that going-forward I am left feeling like that section was there to essentially "haveSex=True" and "give out information points 145-147."
    I transcribed this for you and thirsty. It is from the interview 3rdI has been trying to tell you to listen too. Maybe you listened, maybe you didn't. For those who haven't listened they may find it interesting.

    From Pat "I wrote this to be the story of a mans life. If you read an autobiography, only an idiot would read an autobiography and type up a review and say,'uhh, they really diverged from the main plot'. And you think, a person life does not have a plot. That just doesn't happen in the real world. Even the people we tend to believe their life had a plot, thats only because we tend to cling to the concepts of a story centered universe. But really it doesn't matter how obsessive you are, your parents are killed when you are a child, so you run off to find the murders and kill them, unless you are a complete sociopath, other things happen in your life. You fall in love, you go to school, something happens. Theres no main plot to batman, its just a series of stories and events. Then again thats been one of my main struggles with this book. It's way easier to write something with one central plot and then a sub plot or two. where as these books i strive to maintain the feel that they are the story of a man trying to tell the story of his life."

    Forgive the spelling and bad sentence structure i had to type it up from an audio interview.

    Forgive my bad humor Eraefel, I type it how i think it. I know this is all your opinion as well as mine. I am only trying to give another view.

  6. #606
    Supercalifragilistic teahupoo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erfael View Post
    We're not dealing in facts here.
    In previous posts you have agreed with people who have stated their "facts"

    I shall quote thirsty, "I think it comes down to this. Though Rothfuss wrote many clever excuses into the book for it's poor pacing, it's still poorly paced. At the end of the day, despite the fact that it's written as an autobiography, it is not an autobiography. It's a novel."

    You stated you agreed with Thirsty on this "important" point. You cannot have it both ways.


    Quote Originally Posted by Erfael View Post
    It's a book. Some people will love it. Some people will hate it. The majority will fall somewhere in between.
    This statement is false. I can say for a fact that the majority of people fall on the side of loving it. And to say SOME hate it? Well i think it would be more truthful to say VERY FEW. Do you disagree?

  7. #607
    Frog Lady Kaeru's Avatar
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    I think it's easier to discuss things in person. In person I love to talk about things that fit, didn't fit, theories on where things are going, etc. On here I'm always a little hesitant to go in depth on my opinions because even in the little bit that I have mentioned there have been occasions where I post something and later someone will make a comment whether direct or not that I kinda sit there thinking "but... I wrote...." Things don't translate as easily in print, ya know?

  8. #608
    Quote Originally Posted by teahupoo View Post
    This statement is false. I can say for a fact that the majority of people fall on the side of loving it. And to say SOME hate it? Well i think it would be more truthful to say VERY FEW. Do you disagree?
    That's a crock and you know it. Until you go talk to every single person who read the book, you cannot call anything "fact."

    I don't understand what the problem is here. Some people loved the book, some liked it...but apparently merely liking it isn't good enough for the staunch Rothfussites.

    As for what he "intended" to do, I honestly don't care. If it bores me, it bores me. So what, you want people to call it a boring/poorly-paced autobiography instead? I'm sure they can do that.


    And I want to address something that keeps coming up, and that is the defenders' (though why these people feel the need to take up this role is beyond me) assertion that people should not be upset with the book for not being epic enough because it is not an epic. Let's take a look at the back of my copy of NotW:

    My name is Kvothe.

    I have stole princesses back from sleeping barrow kings. I burned down the town of Trebon. I have spent the night with Felurian and left with both my sanity and my life. I was expelled from the University at a younger age than most people are allowed in. I tread paths by moonlight that others fear to speak of during day. I have talked to Gods, loved women, and written songs that make the minstrels weep.

    You may have heard of me.
    The problem is that this little snippet--used as a marketing bit to get people hooked--sounds pretty gosh darn epic to me. A thing you hear a lot of authors talk about is "promises to the reader." You know what that promises me? A pretty epic tale of a badass with a crazy life. Instead we get a pretty...well, un-epic tale. Which is exactly the point of the book, I know, but you would NOT expect that from the excerpt.

    It is billed as an epic. There are "promises to the reader" of epic proportions. And it is decidedly not an epic...but those elements were used to promote the book. So, really, I don't see how you can argue against the people that complain that it isn't epic-y enough when they probably read it under that very assumption.

    Just my $.02

  9. #609
    Quote Originally Posted by teahupoo View Post
    Throughout this whole post you find the need to herd people into groups of why and why not's. Why? That you think you can categorize why people feel they do about it....well I just can't figure that out.



    It seems you and thirsty have cracked the case. Your proof is unquestionable. You both deserve congratulations. Someone should Email this to Patrick post-haste He has the right to know that he has failed in writing an autobiography.



    I transcribed this for you and thirsty. It is from the interview 3rdI has been trying to tell you to listen too. Maybe you listened, maybe you didn't. For those who haven't listened they may find it interesting.

    From Pat "I wrote this to be the story of a mans life. If you read an autobiography, only an idiot would read an autobiography and type up a review and say,'uhh, they really diverged from the main plot'. And you think, a person life does not have a plot. That just doesn't happen in the real world. Even the people we tend to believe their life had a plot, thats only because we tend to cling to the concepts of a story centered universe. But really it doesn't matter how obsessive you are, your parents are killed when you are a child, so you run off to find the murders and kill them, unless you are a complete sociopath, other things happen in your life. You fall in love, you go to school, something happens. Theres no main plot to batman, its just a series of stories and events. Then again thats been one of my main struggles with this book. It's way easier to write something with one central plot and then a sub plot or two. where as these books i strive to maintain the feel that they are the story of a man trying to tell the story of his life."

    Forgive the spelling and bad sentence structure i had to type it up from an audio interview.

    Forgive my bad humor Eraefel, I type it how i think it. I know this is all your opinion as well as mine. I am only trying to give another view.
    Respect. I do wonder if any of the detractors around here actually listened to that entire interview. Sometimes I feel like I am banging my head against the wall. So many of the issues/arguments etc. presented are addressed in the interview. It might help some individuals see the story in a different light. I have to admit that last interview he did with Adventures in Sci-Fi Publishing really felt vindicating to me. A number of the things he touches upon are things I have been saying from the very beginning. The fact that I "get" it, at least according to the author (whose word on their own work is really the only relevant one) is rather cool. You have been making the very same arguments as well I imagine that interview had to put a smile on your face as well.

  10. #610
    Quote Originally Posted by sdelu View Post
    That's a crock and you know it. Until you go talk to every single person who read the book, you cannot call anything "fact."
    Really? Well here are some numbers...you know...physical data, evidence to support Teahupoo's position.

    The Wise Man's Fear (The Kingkiller Chronicle #2)
    by Patrick Rothfuss (Goodreads Author)
    4.55 of 5 · rating details · 2,899 ratings · 891 reviews

    http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...ise_Man_s_Fear

    See that is how you win a debate. Evidence to support your position. Both teahupoo and I have produced an absurd amount of relevant reviews, articles, and interviews to support our positions.
    Last edited by 3rdI; April 16th, 2011 at 12:15 AM.

  11. #611
    Palinodic Moderator KatG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teahuppo
    This statement is false. I can say for a fact that the majority of people fall on the side of loving it. And to say SOME hate it? Well i think it would be more truthful to say VERY FEW. Do you disagree?
    Well I disagree. This is, I would argue, a not very realistic view of fiction readers. The majority of people on this forum fall in the like to love range on Rothfuss' books. In fact, as I was reminding staff members the other day, I've never seen an author get a more enthusiastic reception here than Rothfuss did, which at the time when Name of the Wind came out, I found delightful as the novel apparently contained all the elements they kept swearing they disliked and didn't want to see in a fantasy novel again. It was actually this reaction that caused me to read the book.

    There are, however, many people who really don't like Kvothe and the books. A few of them are on this forum, more elsewhere. This is the case for any book, however many glowing reviews it gets, however well it sells and however many awards it wins. The more attention and acclaim a novel gets, the more people have read it and the more you're going to run into people who don't like the work at all. And even if you think the person is totally off his rocker, it will not kill you to listen to that person.

    Someone not liking a book is also not the same thing as someone who likes the book but thinks it got a little slow in the middle. That Rothfuss wanted to create an autobiography-like novel does not mean that's the experience that every reader is going to have, or that if they have it that this is an approach that they think totally works for them, which is what Erfael and Thirsty were talking about.

    What I liked about Name of the Wind is that it was, for me, poetically mournful. The book is a lament for events past, good and bad. Even in scenes with a comic and satiric cast, which I liked, or scenes of camaraderie or action, there is a tragic undertone, emphasized in the madness that magic use can create, in the loss of Kvothe's family by forces he didn't understand and which so shaped him, by the power of music on the characters, and by Kvothe's lonely determination to survive and discover the truth. And of course, by our knowledge of the darkness and mystery of his future. But I did also find it a little uneven in pacing, with bits that, even if meandering was the intent, didn't meander in a way that was very interesting to me. But these were mild and didn't significantly bother me. I'm rather used to fantasy novels meandering.

    I suspect that Wise Man's Fear got bigger than it was originally because Rothfuss started to see wider aspects to its bones. And that's okay, but if you're telling me that he still hasn't slept with that woman, then I may have a problem with the thing after all.

  12. #612
    Quote Originally Posted by sdelu View Post
    And I want to address something that keeps coming up, and that is the defenders' (though why these people feel the need to take up this role is beyond me) assertion that people should not be upset with the book for not being epic enough because it is not an epic. Let's take a look at the back of my copy of NotW:



    The problem is that this little snippet--used as a marketing bit to get people hooked--sounds pretty gosh darn epic to me. A thing you hear a lot of authors talk about is "promises to the reader." You know what that promises me? A pretty epic tale of a badass with a crazy life. Instead we get a pretty...well, un-epic tale. Which is exactly the point of the book, I know, but you would NOT expect that from the excerpt.

    It is billed as an epic. There are "promises to the reader" of epic proportions. And it is decidedly not an epic...but those elements were used to promote the book. So, really, I don't see how you can argue against the people that complain that it isn't epic-y enough when they probably read it under that very assumption.

    Just my $.02
    Nonsense. When I read that blurb "epic" didn't come to mind. What did grab my attention was the three or four pages of glowing blurbs from authors within the genre. Lots of books have blurbs. Rarely does one back have THAT MANY blurbs from other professional writers echoing the same effusive praise. I typically do not pay attention to blurbs but that caught my attention. And none of those blurbs mentioned anything about epic. They kept referencing the characterization and complexity in story telling. Sorry the promises the reader argument doesn't hold any weight.

  13. #613
    He hasn't slept with Denna but he has slept with a number of other women since that seems to be your sticking point.

  14. #614
    Damn fool idealist DailyRich's Avatar
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    I'm also not going to blame the author for how the publisher chose to promote the book.

  15. #615
    Palinodic Moderator KatG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3rdI View Post
    Really? Well here are some numbers...you know...physical data, evidence to support Teahupoo's position.

    The Wise Man's Fear (The Kingkiller Chronicle #2)
    by Patrick Rothfuss (Goodreads Author)
    4.55 of 5 · rating details · 2,899 ratings · 891 reviews

    http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...ise_Man_s_Fear

    See that is how you win a debate. Evidence to support your position. Both teahupoo and myself have produced an absurd amount of relevant reviews, articles, and interviews to support our positions.
    Again, 3rdI, this is not a debating competition here. We are not debating whether we should have a clean water act. There are no judges who are going to rule who has the most persuasive argument and award someone a ribbon. Nor is this a matter of who has the most people agreeing with them. Fiction reading is a matter of a person having his own experience of a work. J.K. Rowling is currently the best selling author possibly ever -- do you think that everyone then says, well then we must all love Harry Potter? Could you force someone to love Harry Potter who doesn't on the sheer number of sales and positive reviews and devoted fans? So it doesn't matter how many reviews you trot out. That the reviews exist is fact. That they say one thing or another, however, is not going to cause someone to say, "well, wow, my experience of the book must be all wrong then!"

    I understand that you're trying to present as positive a view of the books you care about as possible to others so that they will read them, I get it, but you have to let other people talk about their own experiences of the fiction here without treating it like an attack on Rothfuss. Otherwise, we simply get into a flame war, with people who don't even want to be in one, which as you are familiar with, is against the forum rules.
    Last edited by KatG; April 16th, 2011 at 12:20 AM.

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