The Dragon's Path (The Dagger and the Coin) by Daniel Abraham

[PeterWilliam]

I do now have the omnibi!!! of that series, so I'll be going through it soon.

Oooh, nice and shiny.

I'll see if I like it as much the second time around. It was a big favorite at the time.

Much like Greg Keyes' series, the final book of the Long Price killed it for me. I blogged as much in a review and was surprised to get a comment from Abraham about it. He was very cordial and polite.

I know he was supposed to feel the remorse of the burning of Vanai (the recurring mention of the woman at the wall), but Abraham didn't make me connect to that in any way.

Ahh, here is where I think we differ. I think that Abraham was actually attempting to portray Geder in a less than favorable light. I suspect the author was trying to horrify the reader with how cavalierly Geder committed such an atrocity, and then subsequently 'got over it.' I suspect that Geder is being established to become a rather monstrous character. In that sense, Geder is chilling, somewhat like the character Baldanders in Wolfe's BOTNS, in that you sense that you are being set up to empathize with the poor wretch, until you discover how truly wretched he is.

But maybe not. Only Abraham could 'tell it true.'

[Erfael]

Ahh, here is where I think we differ. I think that Abraham was actually attempting to portray Geder in a less than favorable light.

This one clicked something in my brain. I couldn't tell what light Abraham intended for him. There didn't seem to be any focus, favorable or unfavorable. Which is fine. But there also didn't seem to be enough of a picture there that I could shine my own light on it and come up with anything compelling, either. For me it's not that he has to be a "good guy". I'm just as happy to see a psychological picture of someone descending into monstrosity, as you describe. But these characters felt very underdeveloped. And that's how I felt about all the characters until very late in the book.

I suspect the author was trying to horrify the reader with how cavalierly Geder committed such an atrocity, and then subsequently 'got over it.'

This would work for me, but it needs some contrast thrown in. Since none of the characters actually reacted to anything emotionally for the first 3/4 of the book, his lack of reaction to the massacre was par for the course and not terribly horrifying or alarming or anything else.

[Corporal Blues]

I read The Dragon's Path recently, and I gotta say, I was not all that impressed.

The races weren't fleshed out and were WAY too homogeneous to be all that believable. The world itself didn't seem all that diverse either. When Geder traveled clear across the map, it wasn't all that interesting and the landscape seemed pretty homogeneous. Or at least Abraham didn't make the journey come to life.

Speaking of Geder, I couldn't stand either him or Kalliam. They were both pretty dumb, and in Kalliam's case, the most shortsighted politician ever.

The story wasn't a total fail though because I thought Cithrin and Marcus were pretty interesting and well done characters, and the economics/banking plot elements were well done too.

Overall, I was quite disappointed with the novel, and left feeling a bit bewildered about all the positive reviews and accolades I've heard about Abraham.

[Loerwyn]

Almost a year on, CB, and I'll say this. I cannot remember the majority of the book.

It just... didn't sit in my mind. Cithrin was pretty good, and I agree with the banking thing - was quite interesting, but largely I've forgotten it.

[Corporal Blues]

Do you think you'll read the next installment in the series?

Despite not enjoying this one, I am a bit torn on the next volume, because I part of me thinks I should give Abraham another shot, but then again, he had 500+ pages to flesh things out, develop the world and the people that populate it but he didn't.

I just don't see the goods to back up all the positive reviews and hype.

[Loerwyn]

Out of sheer bloody mindedness, yes. Modesitt got me into fantasy with an economic bent, so I take what I can get - especially if it has a strong female in it.

But I'll certainly be getting Abraham's other heavy hitter (Caliban's War) before I get the next one.

[Corporal Blues]

So would you say Leviathan Wakes is the better of the two? I have that on my shelf as well.

[Danogzilla]

So would you say Leviathan Wakes is the better of the two? I have that on my shelf as well.

I would. I'm much more excited about its sequel than the next in his fantasy series.

[kcf]

It's a matter of taste. I enjoyed Leviathan Wakes a lot, but I enjoyed The Dragon's Path much more. The characters of TDP are very interesting to me and the POV that Abraham has chosen to tell the story through present a non-traditional lense to see the series through that is somewhat unique in epic fantasy. I like those complexities a lot.

And it didn't bother me that Abraham was light on the worldbuilding in this one. I expect we'll see a lot more development of the differences in races and such in the next book(s). When I chatted with him in person about the book it was pretty fascinating to hear some the directions he intends to explore.

[Loerwyn]

So would you say Leviathan Wakes is the better of the two? I have that on my shelf as well.

Yes. Leviathan Wakes is one of the best 2011 releases that I read. It's pulpy, yes, but Franck and Abraham really knocked it out of the park.

[Corporal Blues]

It's a matter of taste. I enjoyed Leviathan Wakes a lot, but I enjoyed The Dragon's Path much more. The characters of TDP are very interesting to me and the POV that Abraham has chosen to tell the story through present a non-traditional lense to see the series through that is somewhat unique in epic fantasy. I like those complexities a lot.

And it didn't bother me that Abraham was light on the worldbuilding in this one. I expect we'll see a lot more development of the differences in races and such in the next book(s). When I chatted with him in person about the book it was pretty fascinating to hear some the directions he intends to explore.

Thanks for your thoughtful response Neth,

It's interesting that you thought the POV's were unique, because in my opinion they were pretty generic. i feel like an aging soldier, and two nobles one young, one old are pretty common in fantasy. I will say that Cithrin is unique in that she is a woman and is given a voice and point of view, something we don't get often enough and I think Abraham did a really good job with her character.

I think the reason I was disappointed over the world building and racial diversity was that they were exciting aspects of the book that I thought deserved much more treatment in an opening volume.

Since you've met Abraham and have chatted with him, maybe you can answer a burning question of mine:

The Antean nobles' squabbles over giving the lower class folk a voice and power was eerily similar to the current "Occupy ____" events and the 1% vs. 99%. In TDP, through some (what I thought was amateurish) political wrangling, the more "conservative" nobles won out in the end, and the "liberal" nobles were portrayed as the "bad guys".

I realize this is a bit of a loaded question and I'm not trying to incite anything and I'm not asking you to make judgments or statements on the man's political leanings, but did you notice the connection and do you think this plot element was a deliberate commentary on current events?

[kcf]

Thanks for your thoughtful response Neth,
Since you've met Abraham and have chatted with him, maybe you can answer a burning question of mine:

The Antean nobles' squabbles over giving the lower class folk a voice and power was eerily similar to the current "Occupy ____" events and the 1% vs. 99%. In TDP, through some (what I thought was amateurish) political wrangling, the more "conservative" nobles won out in the end, and the "liberal" nobles were portrayed as the "bad guys".

I realize this is a bit of a loaded question and I'm not trying to incite anything and I'm not asking you to make judgments or statements on the man's political leanings, but did you notice the connection and do you think this plot element was a deliberate commentary on current events?

I absolutely noticed that this was a portrayal of what in modern terms we would consider conservative vs. liberal, though I think it should be thought of in terms of monarchists vs. some sort of representative governement. It was all about giving power to the lower classes. This was one of things that I found most interesting in the book - especially the POV that Abraham chose. It is the POV of someone, Dawson, that I would consider 'the bad guy' in the situation while the rebels fight for a cause that is more sympathetic to me than maintining the power of the monarchy. The character is mysoginistic, bigoted, racist, etc. etc. He's really a reprehenisbile guy to my 'modern' attitudes. And the reader can't help but feel some sympathy for him. I found it masterful in its presentation and I can't wait to see where Abraham goes with this thread. He did mention in our conversation that we will see quite a few POVs Dawson's wife in future books and Abraham indicated that it'll be something to look forward to.


As for a connection to current events like the occupy movements? Well, this was published well over a year ago, and written quite some time before that. So, Occupy movements weren't around yet. I do think that it is something that Abraham intentionally models after the politics of our current times, and I think he's trying to mess with our minds a bit and make us think potentially uncomfortable thoughts. He seems to be the type of guy who enjoys challenging people's perceptions, especially his own, and I think that aspect really comes out in this book. Which is what I enjoy most about it.


The POVs themselves aren't that interesting - as you say, they come off as a bit generic. But what Abraham does with them subtly turns things on their head. It's the specific soldiers, politicians, etc that he chooses, what our expectations of them are, and then how Abraham is slowly tearing those expectations apart.

Don't you love that the SFF reading geek in the book turns out to be pyschotic mass-murderer? Who doesn't even realize how evil he is? To me, that's just hilarious in a really aweful (and therefore funny) way.

I too was disappointed that the potential in racial tensions was unrealized. I expect that to increase - when I asked Abraham about it, he basically said he didn't want to do too much with the first book (you know how some authors throw everything and the kitchen sink into their first book). I got the impression that we'll be seeing things movie more in this direction.


Second Edit: Oh, and to directly answer a question you danced around, I think it's pretty safe to say that Abraham would fall into the liberal category of a politcal spectrum - probably very liberal.

[polishgenius]

Speaking of how the races were fleshed out and that, I suspect we'll see more development in the next one, because Abraham acknowledged it might be a thing and posted this up on his site.


As for your question, I've never met the man and can't speak for his political leanings, but I can answer with some certainty that no inspiration was taken from the Occupy movement, being released some months before it started.

I don't think the liberals were actually presented as the bad guys though. I mean yes, from the PoV of Dawson they were, but I don't think he was supposed to be a good guy. Just a guy. Not to mention, this is the first of a five book series, what on earth makes you think it's "in the end"?


I do recommend that you try his Long Price books before you give up on Abraham even if you don't decide to go any further in Dagger and Coin, though. I like Dagger and Coin and all and am eager to see where he takes it next, but Long Price is still, and with good reason, his calling card. And in terms of how defined the world and the characters are, I suspect it might float your boat more. It's certainly more unique.

[Corporal Blues]

I absolutely noticed that this was a portrayal of what in modern terms we would consider conservative vs. liberal, though I think it should be thought of in terms of monarchists vs. some sort of representative governement. It was all about giving power to the lower classes. This was one of things that I found most interesting in the book - especially the POV that Abraham chose. It is the POV of someone, Dawson, that I would consider 'the bad guy' in the situation while the rebels fight for a cause that is more sympathetic to me than maintining the power of the monarchy. The character is mysoginistic, bigoted, racist, etc. etc. He's really a reprehenisbile guy to my 'modern' attitudes. And the reader can't help but feel some sympathy for him. I found it masterful in its presentation and I can't wait to see where Abraham goes with this thread. He did mention in our conversation that we will see quite a few POVs Dawson's wife in future books and Abraham indicated that it'll be something to look forward to.

I really struggled with Kalliam, because I really didn't like him, and I didn't like how me made me feel reading his POV. I also struggled with the idea that Abraham was either a genius in writing such a character, or potentially a very conservative minded guy...I couldn't really tell because he masks his intentions quite well.

As for a connection to current events like the occupy movements? Well, this was published well over a year ago, and written quite some time before that. So, Occupy movements weren't around yet. I do think that it is something that Abraham intentionally models after the politics of our current times, and I think he's trying to mess with our minds a bit and make us think potentially uncomfortable thoughts. He seems to be the type of guy who enjoys challenging people's perceptions, especially his own, and I think that aspect really comes out in this book. Which is what I enjoy most about it.


The POVs themselves aren't that interesting - as you say, they come off as a bit generic. But what Abraham does with them subtly turns things on their head. It's the specific soldiers, politicians, etc that he chooses, what our expectations of them are, and then how Abraham is slowly tearing those expectations apart.

Don't you love that the SFF reading geek in the book turns out to be pyschotic mass-murderer? Who doesn't even realize how evil he is? To me, that's just hilarious in a really aweful (and therefore funny) way.

I too was disappointed that the potential in racial tensions was unrealized. I expect that to increase - when I asked Abraham about it, he basically said he didn't want to do too much with the first book (you know how some authors throw everything and the kitchen sink into their first book). I got the impression that we'll be seeing things movie more in this direction.

Thanks for your amazing response Neth. I think discussing the book with you and others has changed my perception of the book a fair amount. I'm still gonna stick to my original guns and say that the world building and racial diversity were lacking, and I'm still unsure if I'll carry on with the series, but at the very least, it's good to know I'm not the only one who had conflicted feelings over some aspects of the book. Thanks again.


Polishgenius:

Not to mention, this is the first of a five book series, what on earth makes you think it's "in the end"?

I'm well aware of that fact, and was speaking specifically about the events in the first book, and in the end of TDP, that was the result; a political victory for Kalliam and his cadre.

I do recommend that you try his Long Price books before you give up on Abraham even if you don't decide to go any further in Dagger and Coin, though. I like Dagger and Coin and all and am eager to see where he takes it next, but Long Price is still, and with good reason, his calling card. And in terms of how defined the world and the characters are, I suspect it might float your boat more. It's certainly more unique.

Thanks, I plan on doing just that at some point.

[suciul]

(raw thoughts but hopefully coherent) review of The King's Blood (#2)

As I may not be able to do a full FBC rv close to the US publication date, I will try to have a longer "raw thoughts" review here.

The book is secondary world fantasy at its best and in addition it has a writing style quite above the usual "utility English" of the genre; maybe not quite at (the top of) literary fiction levels (see Hari Kunzru's Gods without Men for recent such), but close, while pretty much all the things that I would mark as negatives come from the nature of the genre rather than from the author.

I would try to avoid spoilers so I will talk only a little about the storyline, just to mention that it is a direct continuation of The Dragon's Path and a lot of things happen by the end of the novel (at a good stopping point with no cliffhangers but not much global resolution beyond tbc either - in this sense the first two volumes of the intended 5 book series are truly volume 1/2 of a huge novel)

The structure is similar with Dragon's Path and features POV chapters from Cithrin, Dawson, Clara, Geder and Marcus with interludes from Master Kit. As mentioned lots of things happen including intrigues, conspiracies, wars, pirates, deaths of named characters, while the world is expanded to some extent and the roles of the 13 races are made a little bit clearer here, though again mostly regular humans aka "firstbloods" are of importance (and Cithrin of course who is half-blood Cinnae but much closer to her firstblood half by upbringing)

There is an appendix written from the pov of a scholar of one the "superior bloods' (of course he would claim that...) and discussing the 13 races, while many secondary characters - some new, some old and some who may become important later appear and some have really great moments

The pages turn by themselves and I literally could not put the book down and read it in one very long sitting, but i expect to revisit the world and probably reread Dragon Path too soon.

I put 2 paragraphs below in spoiler tags as they discuss my expectations about some characters in future volumes - this implies said characters will be part of future volumes (though I would say that is not a surprise from the way the series is structured); other than that (showing that these characters survive), no real spoilers, but still read this at your choice

As for the main 5 POV characters I would say that all but Marcus truly shine in this novel - Marcus has little to do for most of the book, give or take a confrontation with pirates, but his storyline starts getting interesting towards the end. The only major qualm I have is that in future volumes the author will do a "Fall of Thanes" with Geder who together with Cithrin (clearly marked as "the" heroine so far, so there no worries and I expect her only to grow and deepen) is the most interesting character imho (you can look my review of Fall of Thanes but in essence one of the main characters of that series - Godless World/B. Ruckley - who was very interesting in the first two volumes as a conflicted "villain" but also driver of action becomes a pure caricature with scenes like the Emperor and Luke in the last original Star Wars movie that are truly laughable and I hated that transformation from a nuanced and deep character to a cartoon villain)

As for negatives - as mentioned mostly due to genre - the book like most sff is about politics and the organization of society and like most fantasy it is a retrograde such where "what is your blood" counts more than anything else outside of specific commercial cities - true that say Geder who is minor nobility raises himself with luck and a strong dose of magic, but he is still noble - nobility and blood with the role of women very traditional in the "high society" - again the lower and commercial classes are different but over 60% of the book is about the nobility, a bit smaller world building than expected and occasionally feeling like a sandbox - but ultimately the novel captivated me again and showed that great writing and characters and a reasonably well thought secondary world (with the caveats above) still can keep me interested in traditional fantasy despite my feeling of "exhausting the genre" in the last 4 years.

A few more thoughts - the book also has an elegant rather than visceral feel and consequently the more emotional moments are still cerebral to a large extent rather than pure emotion and the action flows naturally rather than twisting and turning - here I tend to prefer the more visceral feel and the twists and turns with "what..?" moments, but as that is a pure personal preference, I would not count it against the book especially that it executes so well in these two categories (elegant style, natural story lines)


All in all King's Blood was the first 2012 fantasy that satisfied my expectations and of course it will have a place on my top 25 list of the year and i hope the series will continue to keep this extremely high standards all the way - i also believe that there is scope and depth for 5 books though I expect considerably more universe expansion