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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmethystOrator View Post
    a question of misogyny that arose in the third book
    It arose in the third?

    There's a scene in the first book where he meets a pretty young blonde. He's rude to her, she tries to slap him, he backhands her across the face. He breaks her nose. Later he sees to it that she is punished for being disrespectful toward him.

    If, later, we learn that she was eeeevil, it doesn't matter; he didn't know it when he broke her nose for trying to slap him after he'd said nasty things to her.
    Last edited by Mister; May 24th, 2012 at 04:33 PM. Reason: Got some details wrong

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister View Post
    He, apparently, isn't a moron.

    Whoa, that is real subtle, Mr. Mister. Debate is supposed to be educational, not insulting. If you want to continue this discussion via PMs I'll oblige, but I feel that the subject is too off-topic for me to reply here.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaserWraith View Post
    Whoa, that is real subtle, Mr. Mister. Debate is supposed to be educational, not insulting. If you want to continue this discussion via PMs I'll oblige, but I feel that the subject is too off-topic for me to reply here.
    Sorry, but if you're going to post ill-thought-out propaganda in a public forum, you should have the decency to accept criticism for it in public.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister View Post
    Sorry, but if you're going to post ill-thought-out propaganda in a public forum, you should have the decency to accept criticism for it in public.
    It is difficult to learn from other people or have a rational discussion when you automatically assume their arguments are little more than "ill-thought-out propaganda". Especially when I haven't really posted any arguments at all, in the interest of not staying too far off the path.

    Back to Atticus: Can you tell me the chapter in which he breaks a female's nose for being disrespectful?

  5. #185
    \m/ BEER \m/ Moderator Rob B's Avatar
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    MODERATOR NOTE


    We've let this go on long enough, and we've gone too far away from the books. It's starting to border on personal attacks, so please stop.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Rob B View Post
    MODERATOR NOTE


    We've let this go on long enough, and we've gone too far away from the books. It's starting to border on personal attacks, so please stop.

    Sure.

    =======

    I found the part of Hounded that talks about the slap:

    [Emily, the witch, just tricked Atticus into making some brew against Aenghus Óg, the god or something close that wanted to kill him. So she started the whole situation.]

    “So you’ve come to me to make him wilt like lettuce?” I said. “You could have done the job yourself by shedding that skin and showing him what you really look like.”

    Wow. I couldn’t believe I’d just said that. Her eyes bulged with the offense, and she whipped her right hand toward my face for a slap. Now, a slap from a normal woman I could handle. Heck, I’d suggest I needed one after saying something like that to a regular college kid. But a slap from a witch is simply not permissible, because sure as the moon rises full once a month, she’d use her nails to scrape some skin off my cheek, perhaps even draw some blood, and then she’d have me. A friend of mine fell prey to precisely this sort of trick centuries ago, and it had poisoned me against witches ever since. She had goaded him into saying something rude, slapped him and left marks on his face, and then that very night his heart exploded inside his chest. I don’t mean he had a heart attack: His heart had literally blown apart as if someone had planted explosives in it, long before gunpowder was invented. Some other Druids and I had taken him to the grove and done a rudimentary autopsy to see if we could puzzle out why he’d dropped dead so abruptly, and we found this crater inside his rib cage. That’s when I realized he’d been killed the moment she slapped him.

    I’d never avenged him—the witch got away—and it still stung centuries later. That’s why Emily’s attempt to slap me got a very violent reaction: I knocked her arm down by crossing my right hand over my face, then I backhanded her really hard, much harder than I should have. I shouldn’t have hit her at all; I should have just backed up out of her reach, but I tend to flare up when people try to kill me—which was what she was trying to do, make no mistake. She squealed and staggered back a few steps, holding her nose.
    I had broken it, and I sort of felt like an a**h*** even though she had planned to do much worse to me.

    I don't see misogyny in that, just Atticus upset at being manipulated...how do you interpret it, Mister?
    Last edited by LaserWraith; May 24th, 2012 at 04:25 PM.

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaserWraith View Post
    Sure.

    =======

    I found the part of Hounded that talks about the slap:




    I don't see misogyny in that, just Atticus upset at being manipulated...how do you interpret it, Mister?
    First off, Atticus' argument only makes any sense if we agree that he really does know everything, as he argues, that he's never wrong, as he argues. Because despite his "make no mistake" assertions, the character is not telepathic. The witch did not have some kind of poisoned needle drop out of her hand. His statements, no matter how assertive, are suppositions. They are suppositions from someone who admits that a single incident "poisoned [him] against witches."

    Do you believe his suppositions? There's no evidence to support them at this point. Later we are told, conveniently, that this witch is evil; but it's also shown that he misjudges another witch.

    Rereading the passage, I see I got some details wrong, but I think my memories are supported by later passages in the book. For instance, I think there's talk later about how he felt she had been disrespectful to him, and I don't think his remorse ("*ssh*le") is carried forward from this point.

    His justification for hitting her in the face and breaking her nose is that he says she was trying to kill him, but there's no evidence for it other than the fact that Atticus is never wrong.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister View Post
    First off, Atticus' argument only makes any sense if we agree that he really does know everything, as he argues, that he's never wrong, as he argues. Because despite his "make no mistake" assertions, the character is not telepathic. The witch did not have some kind of poisoned needle drop out of her hand. His statements, no matter how assertive, are suppositions. They are suppositions from someone who admits that a single incident "poisoned [him] against witches."

    Do you believe his suppositions? There's no evidence to support them at this point. Later we are told, conveniently, that this witch is evil; but it's also shown that he misjudges another witch.

    Rereading the passage, I see I got some details wrong, but I think my memories are supported by later passages in the book. For instance, I think there's talk later about how he felt she had been disrespectful to him, and I don't think his remorse ("*ssh*le") is carried forward from this point.

    His justification for hitting her in the face and breaking her nose is that he says she was trying to kill him, but there's no evidence for it other than the fact that Atticus is never wrong.


    What the witch did was equivalent to me preparing to shoot you with a blowdart, after saying that I'm revealing you to the assassin who wants to murder you. The blowdart may be poisoned, it may not. You don't know, but it is very likely that it could have poison on the tip. You would be justified in knocking the tube out of my mouth and and punching me for manipulating your life.

    Or the analogy could be that I have a gun pointed at your head and you don't know whether or not it is loaded, but you would still be justified in responding to the threat.


    If Atticus knew this witch well and trusted her, there would be much less reason to respond as he did. But no, she is aggressive, a stranger, somehow using Atticus in a life-threatening way (with his archenemy), and is now about to do something that could kill him.

    I'd break her nose as well.

  9. #189
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    I'm not going to reply to your blowdart assertion other than to say I don't think it's an accurate analogy.

    The book contains an abundance of wish fulfillment scenes, whether it's having sex with goddesses or having enemies who are so stupid that they show up in armor that looks idiotic and leaves them powerless while Atticus' super-sword kills them without any effort, or a dog who can communicate so the owner-dog relationship is what every dog owner can only dream of. That scene struck me (argh pun) -- the scene where he breaks the pretty young blonde witch's nose doesn't strike me as drama or action, but as one more element of wish fulfillment.

    I wasn't so convinced of it that I stopped reading, I read it to the end, but the unnecessary blow, the broken nose, the gloating, the demand for an apology, etc., left a deeply unpleasant taste in my mouth, and it came as no surprise to me when people started seeing it in later books.

    Not to continue a hijack, but I wanted you to know, LaserWraith, that I've edited the unfriendly parts out of my longer political post.

  10. #190
    I'm not going to argue about the wish fulfillment scenes, since I usually enjoy them. (And after all, the story isn't that deep in the first place.) But not all the scenes were so "overpowered"...Atticus has weak areas as well (if you say there are too few weak areas, well, he has had over 1,000 years to pick up tips).

    But I still think the analogy fits pretty well. The unknown witch, after antagonizing him, was about to do something that could very likely kill him if she chose. Maybe a more relevant analogy would be that the dart inserted some remote controlled poison release device, but it doesn't matter much. It was still a deadly threat.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by LaserWraith View Post
    Or the analogy could be that I have a gun pointed at your head and you don't know whether or not it is loaded, but you would still be justified in responding to the threat.
    This is the analogy I like. If somebody points a gun at me, then I am justified in using any force -- up to and including deadly force -- to prevent them from shooting me. If it turns out later to have been an unloaded gun, then that's not my problem. There's no way you can stop and run through all the possibilities in the middle of the action.

    Atticus knows full well that witches can use their nails as deadly weapons, and he knows just how easy it is for them to do so. He can't reasonably be expected to ignore that threat. He's not hitting a "poor weak defenseless woman" here, he's hitting an armed and dangerous adversary.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Contrarius View Post
    This is the analogy I like. If somebody points a gun at me, then I am justified in using any force -- up to and including deadly force -- to prevent them from shooting me. If it turns out later to have been an unloaded gun, then that's not my problem. There's no way you can stop and run through all the possibilities in the middle of the action.

    Atticus knows full well that witches can use their nails as deadly weapons, and he knows just how easy it is for them to do so. He can't reasonably be expected to ignore that threat. He's not hitting a "poor weak defenseless woman" here, he's hitting an armed and dangerous adversary.
    The problems are the "tells" about the books, and the scene, that indeed make it look like a wish fulfillment fantasy about "striking back" at those women who "wronged him" or whatever.

    By that, Atticus would also have been in possession of the coven leader's blood, and the nails are only dangerous if she draws blood and then escape- something that he can prevent her from doing, as he is in his place of power.

    Basically, all of it sounds like an excuse for the scene to play out.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Arkeus View Post
    The problems are the "tells" about the books, and the scene, that indeed make it look like a wish fulfillment fantasy about "striking back" at those women who "wronged him" or whatever.
    Ya gotta remember that one of Atticus' characteristics is that he doesn't have a whole lot of moral conscience when it comes to violence. He's not gonna go around angsting for days, like some other UF heroes we might all know and love. As for "wish fulfillment fantasy", heck -- that's a large part of fiction in general.

    In the case of the witch and the slap, it's a very simple equation. She threatened him, he retaliated. End of story.

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkeus View Post
    The problems are the "tells" about the books, and the scene, that indeed make it look like a wish fulfillment fantasy about "striking back" at those women who "wronged him" or whatever.
    What were the tells?

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister View Post
    It arose in the third?
    I was thinking, actually, of the way that Freyja was handled in the book. Particularly

    "Help us slay Thor, and the spoils of Asgard will be yours to take. The goddess Freyja, for example, will be among the spoils."

    "Freyja!" Suttung exclaimed. All the male frost giants took up the name in a sort of horny echo. It was like walking into a nerd party and shouting, "Tricia Helfer!" or "Katee Sackhoff!" I checked their auras again and the males were turning red with arousal. The women were rolling their eyes and trying not to vomit.
    I didn't see what Freyja had done to our "heroes" at that point other than be an obstacle in their way. And the text seems to indicate that a deal was being made to enslave her and make her a "spoil" (i.e. sex slave) for all the male frost giants. If Hearne was going to go there, I didn't see any of the male Asgardians being offered up as sex slaves for the female frost giants. And it's not like the "heroes" went to pains later on so as to cheat the frost giants and protect her from that fate.

    Ultimately, I was thinking that having your heroes plan the sexual enslavement of an innocent woman seems wrong.

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