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  1. #91
    Fulgurous Moderator KatG's Avatar
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    Sorry about that. It's very hard to talk about the books without reference to stuff in later books because Martin is a tricky boy who threads everything.

    6. Ugh. Don't take your anger out on others, Fluffy. -- He's proving his mettle to lead the pirates. His first mate gives him a brief look of respect after. That's why he's being so extreme here. He's trying to keep control of his men.

    13. Lawl she's funny and rude. -- Yeah but it was too long on these scenes.

    19. "Do you have sheep at the Wall?" xD -- Despite my thinking they spent too much romantic chitchat for Jon and Ygritte, this was the best line of the night certainly.

    23. That the Mountain? Guy needs to stop gargling gravel. -- Yes, that's the Mountain. I'm still not used to him. Interesting that Tywin thinks Loch's death was an assassination attempt on himself.

    28. Nooo, Arya, don't think about murderifying him, you work well together! -- I know, it's rather frightening.

    31. Hahahaha. Oops. Arya's veil is ridiculously thin, and Tywin can see it. I think he's teasing her because he knows how dangerous she could be. -- I'm not sure how they're playing it. I think he's been suspicious twice, but she managed to damper them down both times. But they keep changing things and Tyrion has been at Harrenhal much longer than in the books, so I'm not sure what they are going to do.

    32. The Hound's a bastard! I don't mean the Jon Snow kind, I mean the Joffrey kind. -- Oh he's way worse than Joffrey. But he loves Sansa.

    36. I like one thing about her, at least. Her ability to stand firm in being neutral towards treating people. Duty first. Polly Ticks second. -- I've decided that she's too annoying for me to like.

    39. Who crimps Daenerys' hair? Do they have the right irons in Qarth? -- LOL

    40. She Wants To Be Adored. But I don't adore her. Or like her. -- Aw come on, Dany's a good girl. She's just realized she's screwed, is all.

    42. You know nothing, Jon Snow! -- The famous line!

    50. Uh oh. Whatsherface is just hinting a little too much about her incest-time. -- She's not hinting. She knows that Tyrion knows. It's interesting as they had her fighting Tyrion and wanting to destroy him, but here she's gotten desperate over Joffrey and vulnerable and they have a brother-sister moment. The riot shook show Cersei up. (Book Cersei not as much.)

    52. Jamie sounds wrong. Maybe it's just been so long since I heard him... -- His accent seemed more British-y. Maybe part of him putting on a brave face.

    55. That lady with the mask seems... wrong. The way she moves, it just seems fake. Digital, even. -- She's a snake witch.

    58. 'ANG 'IM -- Yes, that's a change from the book, slightly.

    59. Brienne! I dunno, I care for her less with each scene. She seems too cardboard. -- You'll like her better later.

    67. Wait... who? WHO WAS THAT?! It... nooo
    68. Wait. No. Seriously. I don't know who Chinfluff hoisted up. -- He killed and hoisted the two orphan boys who Bran sent to that farm to live as pretend corpses of Bran and Rickon. As referenced by Bran during their escape when he said, look, there's the farm where I sent the two orphan boys. But we can't get help from them because Theon will then kill them. Theon killed them anyway to keep his hold over Winterfell. It wasn't his brightest move. But if he were bright, you wouldn't love him so much.
    Last edited by KatG; May 15th, 2012 at 06:46 PM.

  2. #92
    Registered User Loerwyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KatG View Post
    Sorry about that.
    About what, Kat? I don't think you've wronged me!

    6. He's proving his mettle to lead the pirates. His first mate gives him a brief look of respect after. That's why he's being so extreme here. He's trying to keep control of his men.

    Which shows just how weak his grasp on them is, in my opinion.

    13. Yeah but it was too long on these scenes.
    Definitely. Yes, Ygritte, we know you have the hots for Jon. Can you please stop with the "STICK IT IN ME BOY" attitude? Please?

    23. Yes, that's the Mountain. I'm still not used to him. Interesting that Tywin thinks Loch's death was an assassination attempt on himself.
    Or perhaps it's a ruse? But, to be honest, you'd at least contemplate it being so if you were in his shoes

    31. I'm not sure how they're playing it. I think he's been suspicious twice, but she managed to damper them down both times. But they keep changing things and Tywin has been at Harrenhal much longer than in the books, so I'm not sure what they are going to do.
    Me neither (obviously), but I would be more surprised if Arya somehow admitted to him her lineage.

    32. Oh he's way worse than Joffrey. But he loves Sansa.
    Lies. No-one is worse than Joffrey.

    40. Aw come on, Dany's a good girl. She's just realized she's screwed, is all.
    I still don't care for her much. As a character, I have no reason to root for her. She's loud, deluded, full of herself and spoiled.

    50. She's not hinting. She knows that Tyrion knows. It's interesting as they had her fighting Tyrion and wanting to destroy him, but here she's gotten desperate over Joffrey and vulnerable and they have a brother-sister moment. The riot shook show Cersei up. (Book Cersei not as much.)
    I hope this means she's truly beginning to see how vile Joffrey is.

    55. She's a snake witch.
    Okay. Weirdy person it is.

    59. You'll like her better later.

    I'm sure I will, it's just right now she's very awkward. She moves awkwardly, she acts awkwardly, and she's really just an over-zealous guard at this point, but then again she's not had much time to shine.

    67 & 68. He killed and hoisted the two orphan boys who Bran sent to that farm to live as pretend corpses of Bran and Rickon. As referenced by Bran during their escape when he said, look, there's the farm where I sent the two orphan boys. But we can't get help from them because Theon will then kill them. Theon killed them anyway to keep his hold over Winterfell. It wasn't his brightest move. But if he were bright, you wouldn't love him so much.
    Love Chinfluff? Are you mad?! I kinda realised it couldn't be Bran and Rickon after (*cough*Wikipedia*cough*), and it twigged it was those kids. It was still vile, though.

  3. #93
    Gloriam Imperator kged's Avatar
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    [Deleted.]
    Last edited by kged; May 14th, 2012 at 07:23 PM. Reason: Wrongness.

  4. #94
    Saturn Comes Back Around Evil Agent's Avatar
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    Yeah, Jaime is played by a Danish actor, and his version of a British accent has been pretty poor ever since Season 1. It makes him more difficult to understand, and doesn't match Cersei or Tyrion. That being said, I love his Danish accent, it actually sounds pretty awesome.

  5. #95
    Cranky old broad AuntiePam's Avatar
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    I'm not noticing accents at all, maybe because the story isn't set in the UK or France or Japan or the US but in an imaginary world. So I don't expect characters to speak in a certain way, except to show their class standing. If Osha spoke like Cersei speaks, that'd seem weird.

    Ygritte's mode of speech reminds me of Osha's -- I love hearing Osha speak, she has a wonderful husky voice.

    But I'm not good at noticing accents anyway, except for the guy who does the Outback Steakhouse commercials. He's supposed to be Australian and he's just awful.

  6. #96
    Fulgurous Moderator KatG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loerwyn View Post
    About what, Kat? I don't think you've wronged me!
    [I]
    About it not being clear that it was all spoilers so you had some things spoiled. Although, if you're sneaking off to Wikipedia, I don't feel so guilty.

    Definitely. Yes, Ygritte, we know you have the hots for Jon. Can you please stop with the "STICK IT IN ME BOY" attitude? Please?
    Well, she is doing that to probe him for weaknesses, keep him unsettled, and trick him into the trap, so it's not just a desire to recruit him.

    Lies. No-one is worse than Joffrey.
    Tons of characters worse than Joffrey -- the Mountain, the Hound, the Tickler, Ramsey Bolton, Littlefinger, etc. I do adore the actor playing Joffrey, though. He's so good.

    I still don't care for her much. As a character, I have no reason to root for her. She's loud, deluded, full of herself and spoiled.
    She's not spoiled. She's been pounded on her whole life. Her pretty horse died, she lost her baby and her husband, people she cared about were murdered because of her, she does not know who to trust. Her dragons have been stolen and she has no money, no resources and no clear future. She is full of herself because she found out that she's magic and she's trying to figure out what to do about that, plus you have to act regal when you're queen, even if you have no kingdom. She's loud because she's trying to keep her enemies at bay with bluster. That's pretty much not going to help her at this point, though. Dany is one of the more nobler characters in the book.

    I hope this means she's truly beginning to see how vile Joffrey is.
    She knows. She talks about it with Tyrion. She was hoping he'd be more like Jaime. Who is vile, and so is she. But she understands that Joffrey is crazy vile and endangering them all.

    Love Chinfluff? Are you mad?! I kinda realised it couldn't be Bran and Rickon after (*cough*Wikipedia*cough*), and it twigged it was those kids. It was still vile, though.
    It is the vilest thing he does, yes.

    I think the wildings actors are trying to have a Northern England sort of sound -- not precise, but different from the more King's English-y sound of the Kings Landing sort of folk. Jaime's accent sounded more natural before. It may be that he pushed it for the character to sound impressive to his distant cousin, to remind his captors that he's a noble-born knight, etc. Most of the actors are British and they seem to be trying out various slight regional accents without overdoing it -- Cat (from the Riverlands) sounds different from the Lannisters, and the Starks except for Sansa have a somewhat more northern sound.

  7. #97
    Registered User Loerwyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KatG View Post
    Well, she is doing that to probe him for weaknesses, keep him unsettled, and trick him into the trap, so it's not just a desire to recruit him.
    And she wants to be "probed" by Jon, right? *Nudge nudge*

    Quote Originally Posted by KatG View Post
    Tons of characters worse than Joffrey -- the Mountain, the Hound, the Tickler, Ramsey Bolton, Littlefinger, etc. I do adore the actor playing Joffrey, though. He's so good.
    I think the actor's good at playing a vile character. Obviously I don't know how good he is relative to the book version, but the TV version definitely works. But I think Joffrey is this kind of vile creature that has no redeeming features at all. The other characters have at least something going for them - The Hound protects the extremely vulnerable Sansa, for example - that makes them more bearable.

    She's not spoiled. She's been pounded on her whole life. Her pretty horse died, she lost her baby and her husband, people she cared about were murdered because of her, she does not know who to trust. Her dragons have been stolen and she has no money, no resources and no clear future. She is full of herself because she found out that she's magic and she's trying to figure out what to do about that, plus you have to act regal when you're queen, even if you have no kingdom. She's loud because she's trying to keep her enemies at bay with bluster. That's pretty much not going to help her at this point, though. Dany is one of the more nobler characters in the book.
    I don't know. I think she has been spoiled in some way, by her brother and then by Drogo after he raped her and before she developed Stockholm Syndrome and fell in love with him and then he went "urk" and became Conan. She's from privilege, it's all she's really known. It's as if she's used to getting her own way, but now people aren't moving for her just because she shouts at them and crimps her hair, and as I see it it's frustrating her.

    But, I will agree with you on one thing. She's going about her business the wrong way. Screaming, shouting and throwing a tantrum won't get her far.

    It is the vilest thing he does, yes.
    He doesn't get worse? I wonder if that means he tries to salvage the damage or he goes URK.

    I think the wildings actors are trying to have a Northern England sort of sound -- not precise, but different from the more King's English-y sound of the Kings Landing sort of folk. Jaime's accent sounded more natural before. It may be that he pushed it for the character to sound impressive to his distant cousin, to remind his captors that he's a noble-born knight, etc. Most of the actors are British and they seem to be trying out various slight regional accents without overdoing it -- Cat (from the Riverlands) sounds different from the Lannisters, and the Starks except for Sansa have a somewhat more northern sound.
    Yeah, that's true enough, it's just the odd few people who sound wrong in context. But yay for Wildlings.

  8. #98
    MJ Dusseault Spears&Buckler's Avatar
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    I love your posts about the show Loerwyn. I look forward to Sundays for the show and then Tuesdays for your posts!

  9. #99
    Registered User Loerwyn's Avatar
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    Thankee-sai.

  10. #100
    Fulgurous Moderator KatG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loerwyn View Post
    And she wants to be "probed" by Jon, right? *Nudge nudge*
    He's young, cute, has all his teeth and is forbidden. She's a teenage girl. So...

    But I think Joffrey is this kind of vile creature that has no redeeming features at all. The other characters have at least something going for them - The Hound protects the extremely vulnerable Sansa, for example - that makes them more bearable.
    Well, the problem is that there are some reasons to feel sorry for Joffrey in the books. He's younger in the books, as are all the kids. He's very much a product of his family. And people do keep slapping him. But in the t.v. show, it's harder to develop those aspects. It's implied, but it's not as much fun as the more visual, exterior bad behavior.

    I don't know. I think she has been spoiled in some way, by her brother and then by Drogo after he raped her and before she developed Stockholm Syndrome and fell in love with him and then he went "urk" and became Conan. She's from privilege, it's all she's really known.
    1) Danys was not spoiled in any way by her brother. Since she was small, she's been her brother's prisoner. He abused her, yelled at her, and regarded her as his property. As both he and she said, he'd let anybody rape her if it would have helped his goals -- and he does. Dany tried again and again to win her brother's love, because he was all she had. It's only when she becomes Khaleesi that she begins to realize that she's worth something on her own, that she understands leading people better than he does, that she's stronger than he is, and that he truly is a messed up person who has no real love for her. So she lets Drogo kill him when Viserys violates the faith of the Dothraki and ruins his own plan. It's with her brother that Danys had Stockholm Syndrome. When she stops being under his thumb is when he starts to freak out.

    2) In the book, Drogo doesn't rape her. That isn't to say that he didn't buy her or that she wouldn't have to have sex with him as his wife eventually. But in the book, he asks her for her consent for that first time, he gives her the option of going slow, he's gentle with her and does not hurt her and tries to make it enjoyable for her. He calls her his queen. And since this is completely opposite to the fear, deprivation, contempt and abuse she experienced in her life, it does cause her (being younger in the book as well,) to begin to fall for him. For somewhat unclear reasons, the two actors and the production staff decided that it made more sense if Drogo was a not very smart barbarian who just rapes her since he bought her. The two actors did the scene well, but it was the first major change from book canon and I still don't think it was a great decision. A lot of people were upset about it.

    3) She's not from privilege. She has been taught that she's from the godly ruling line, sure, but she and her brother were penniless -- that's why he's called the Beggar Prince. They had no servants, no steady home, and were dependent on others taking them in on promise of future pay-off. That's the deal that Viserys makes with the merchant Illyrio, who is playing an even bigger, longer game. So when Danys is being prepared to be shown to Drogo in Illyrio's house, it isn't something she is used to, and she's somewhat in shock at what's happening to her. Basically Danys learns how to be queen from the Dothraki, not from her past. She did not grow up as a princess.

    It's as if she's used to getting her own way,
    Again, she never got her own way until she was with the Dothraki. Before then, she simply did whatever Viserys told her. And even with the Dothraki, she had to learn their ways for them to accept her as queen. And even then, when Drogo falls off his horse, most of them abandon her according to their cultural traditions. The people who went with her, she feels an extra responsibility towards because they've abandon their people and their old lives for her. They talk about this in the show.

    But, I will agree with you on one thing. She's going about her business the wrong way. Screaming, shouting and throwing a tantrum won't get her far.
    She does it to keep her people alive. She has no army, no money, no husband. All she has are her dragons, who are small, and what she represents and the potential wealth and power that can be milked from that. If she stops acting imperious and as if she rules as a queen, if she shows weakness, fear, subservience or acts in any way like she thinks others shouldn't obey when she gives orders, she and her people are very likely going to be killed as useless. It doesn't work for Danys because the wizards and Xho have a bigger coup going on and see Danys as a tool who will take orders. If she had been sweet and polite, however, they would still see her that way and it would have no effect either.

    Also, the fact that Danys is not perfect in acting as a beggar queen, at statesmanship, is not very surprising. She hasn't been trained for it, and in some ways, she's copying what Viserys did. But even if she didn't shout and stamp her foot regally, she would not succeed. And Danys' relationship with her people is not as a spoiled princess. She listens to them, she lets them speak to her, she relies on them. They are the ones who want to crimp her hair and dress her up, which also came up in the show. Danys in the books and to a lesser extent in the show hates having to wear all these weird types of gowns, but there are political reasons for her doing so.

    He doesn't get worse? I wonder if that means he tries to salvage the damage or he goes URK.
    You didn't want spoilers.

  11. #101
    Registered User Loerwyn's Avatar
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    See, half of that doesn't come across just in the show.

  12. #102
    Fulgurous Moderator KatG's Avatar
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    LOL, it's in the show. You just have to listen to every line of dialogue.

  13. #103
    Cranky old broad AuntiePam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KatG View Post
    LOL, it's in the show. You just have to listen to every line of dialogue.
    Some of it's direct, some has to be inferred, and some isn't in the show at all but is in the book, such as #2 in your post (Drogo was a gentle lover from the beginning).

    I think it takes more than listening to every line of dialogue. I agree that we have to listen -- more than once -- think about what we've heard, and then watch again after the season is over. Only then will some of what we've seen make narrative sense, and deepen the story.

    It's not an easy show, and it's not all there on the screen -- at least not on one viewing.

  14. #104
    Registered User Loerwyn's Avatar
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    Pretty much what Pam said.

    But I'm only doing a single viewing. Maybe if I get it all on DVD one day in the future, but for now? One's enough.

  15. #105
    Fulgurous Moderator KatG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AuntiePam View Post
    Some of it's direct, some has to be inferred, and some isn't in the show at all but is in the book, such as #2 in your post (Drogo was a gentle lover from the beginning).
    True, but the material about what Danys life was like with Viserys, their being penniless and going from house to house, etc., was all in the show's dialogue. I only put the book info in to explain that this particular part that Loerwyn didn't like about Danys character was a big change from the original. Almost everything else is in the dialogue. But there is an enormous amount of dialogue in this thing. That's why the sexposition is rather funny -- they use the sex scene to try to fix viewer attention to deliver information.

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