A Dance With Dragons (MASSIVE SPOILERS!!!)

[KatG]

It's kind of like you built a building and it ended up being rather bigger than the original blueprints, and then on the other side of a chasm, you are planning to build another, also very large building of the same materials of the first one, plus some new stuff. And then you realize that you have to build a bridge across the chasm to really build the second building and connect the two into one unit. But getting the bridge to match up between the one building and the planned building site and properly span the chasm proved to be very, very hard. Meanwhile, lots of people are swarming all over the first building and wanting you to talk about it and create spin-off sheds, and life stuff is going on.

So now, the bridge is set up except for the very end part on the site of the new building and there will have to be an annex connecting the bridge to the new building, which might make the whole thing bigger. But right now, ground is getting broke for the new building, which has an actual plan and not a vague sketch like the bridge did.

He's got four and a half years re the t.v. show for Winter. I think he'll probably make that. The bigger trick is the rest, but it is planned and has been for awhile.

[Mithfânion]

I still don't think there's a chance this series moves to 8 books, partly because I think GRRM knows that that will be too much to complete,but mainly because even as late as last month GRRM is still saying 7 books. It seems that if he was going to go to 8 books then he would know by now, but the idea is still, as he said last month, to write two more books of roughly 1,500 manuscript pages.

GRRM says this taking into consideration all the valid points from Wert about the events that were postponed to Winds. So even with all that in mind he still feels 7 is doable. Still possible that he will find it too much for two books when he gets to book 7 of course. But none of us have a really good idea of what exactly he still wants to have happening in this story, and what time period that would require.

[kongming]

Did anyone else get tired of Tyrion wondering where do whores go?

Oh god yes.

[Loerwyn]

Finished it.

Daenerys' chapters have barely moved from being repetitious rubbish about how she... Ugh, I'm foaming at the mouth just thinking about her. But her last chapter was interesting, though WHY WON'T SHE FLIPPING DIE ALREADY?! That girl is too lucky. She survives an assassination attempt, a failed childbirth, walking into fires, splitting up one of the most powerful Dothraki tribes, wars, the pale male, blah blah blah. If she doesn't die after falling down a step or something trivial, then I'm going to be disappointed. She's just a massive waste of time and I really don't care about her. She is too young and too stupid to survive like she has been doing. IT IS KNOWN. BLARGH. *Foams*

Cersei? Well, glad to see her get some sort of payback for her actions, but I think ADWD had the "snap" moment, where something in her head just broke. It was building up, she was getting crazier and crazier, and once she was imprisoned she just snapped. I think she still thinks she's in control, but she isn't.

Jaime is getting interesting, too. I think he was shown as evil fairly on, but once Brienne was in the picture I think he changed. I'm not entirely sure about him, but he seems to have rethought his morality a bit, and his time away from Cersei has really opened his mind. I don't think he's "good", yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if he turns against Cersei openly.

Brienne? Noooooooooo why. And it means no end to Martin's now-dire "Brienne the Beauty" jokes. Oy.

Arya - I don't know if she'll kill anyone important. Her chapters have been a bit odd, and I'm getting fed up of the "who are you?" "no one" "blah blah blah" parts. But she is compelling nonetheless, and I'm interested to see where she goes. I would like to see her go face-to-face (in a manner of speaking) with Varys.

Theon/Asha - Well, I'm rooting for Asha to some degree 'cos I like her. I find her attitude/approach to really stand out. As for Theon? I won't say I like him. I don't. But I think for all his evil actions, I can still find sympathy for him. I think it was Balon's fault, really, as he turned everything Ned Stark did into... evil? As it was said, I think, Ned couldn't be too close to Theon as it might have to be that he kills him for Balon's actions, hence where some of that resentment might have been, but instead of telling the real truth, Balon used a twisted version (and Asha joined in) that turned Theon into, basically, the turncloak. I think he regrets it to some degree, but I think we'd have to see.

Stannis - Noooooooo don't be dead don't be dead I need someone to root for pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeee. But I still find myself on Stannis' side to some level. He's the one with the... ability to hold the Iron Throne, perhaps. But my problem with him is that he's too rigid. He doesn't know what bending is. That's why I think he'll lose (if he's not dead). He will shatter. Completely.

Jon - Not dead. Can't be.

Sam - Poor Sam!

Sansa/Petyr - Um... Well, I don't know. Some interesting chapters, but is it wrong of me to hope that Lord Robert takes a tumble? Probably. But I liked the bastard girl. She was awesome. But that was AFFC, wasn't it? Eh.

As for the end? Yesssssssssssssssssssss. Haha. Awesome way to end it.

[Evil Agent]

Congrats on finishing the series! Now welcome to the waiting-club.

[Loerwyn]

Thanks, I think!

[Werthead]

I don't know if she'll kill anyone important.

To me it seems far too tempting to have her given a commission to kill a prime mover like Daenerys/Aegon/Jon/Stannis, resulting in IRONY. The only problem is that I can't see this development fitting into the two remaining books comfortably.

Stannis - Noooooooo don't be dead don't be dead I need someone to root for pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeee. But I still find myself on Stannis' side to some level. He's the one with the... ability to hold the Iron Throne, perhaps. But my problem with him is that he's too rigid. He doesn't know what bending is. That's why I think he'll lose (if he's not dead). He will shatter. Completely.

Everyone says this, but maybe everyone is wrong Stannis is definitely looser in ADWD than before (if not by much). He's willing to bend a little in some areas to ensure loyalty and he does seem to have learned from his prior mistakes. Maybe not by enough, but more than I think most characters in the books think is possible.

I'm starting to lean towards the 'series ending with Dany as queen and Stannis as Hand' POV. I'd be okay with that (though I can see GRRM killing Dany or not having her become queen as an inversion of expectations).

Daenerys' chapters have barely moved from being repetitious rubbish about how she... Ugh, I'm foaming at the mouth just thinking about her. But her last chapter was interesting, though WHY WON'T SHE FLIPPING DIE ALREADY?! That girl is too lucky. She survives an assassination attempt, a failed childbirth, walking into fires, splitting up one of the most powerful Dothraki tribes, wars, the pale male, blah blah blah. If she doesn't die after falling down a step or something trivial, then I'm going to be disappointed. She's just a massive waste of time and I really don't care about her. She is too young and too stupid to survive like she has been doing. IT IS KNOWN. BLARGH. *Foams*

Ha. In fairness, I think this was GRRM's dilemma with Dany in ASoS. Everying fell into her lap in that book perhaps a tad too easily, and was the reason that Dany was accused of being a Mary Stu afterwards. I think he wanted to say that, actually, making a 16-year-old, idealistic girl the ruler of a vicious slave society is really not a good idea and will result in bloody mayhem that she would not realistically be able to cope with. Or, to parallel the Iraq situation (not GRRM's intent, since ASoS came out long before that conflict started), the conquest is deceptively easy, but the subsequent politicking and peacemaking is interminably difficult to make work. Dany actually faces a real moral dilemma in ADWD that does not have an easy resolution and could easily result in 'rabbit in the headlight syndrome'. I agree that GRRM didn't have to show us the problem in quite so much detail, but I thoroughly disagree when people say that the storyline should have been ended prematurely or rushed to some kind of bloody conclusion. As a way of furthering Dany's characterisation, I think her ADWD plotline was fairly effective in showing her the unforeseen consequences of her meddling in a society she instinctively hates but has no viable alternative to.

[Loerwyn]

R.E. Dany - I will agree that some progress was made in ADWD, but it still stands that by all rights she should have been assassinated much earlier, or at least removed from power. Her control over people seems to have come from nowhere and so on, and when we get to ADWD she's relied on her dragons for, well, everything. She takes, takes, takes and doesn't realise that everything won't be shiny and happy and clean. She gets closer to that conclusion in ADWD, certainly, but I still think that it's rather odd that the Thirteen or some other large group hasn't killed her. The damage she does to the slaving trade, etc. would warrant that in their eyes.

On top of that, her chapters really are bloody boring. They go on and on, she goes through the whole "I'm just a kid" thing, then she goes against the counsel of her wiser peers (who are well-versed in the horrors of the world, but also the compromises that must be made), then it's all I AM TEH BLUD OF TEH DRAGUN and I just get fed up. It's like the chapters Robb had in ACoK - The same theme repeated incessantly, seemingly going nowhere.

As for Stannis... Yes, he does bend a little bit, but he's still fairly rigid. I don't think he can deal with people, though, and that's a big problem for him. He's got what is needed for the Iron Throne (and I think Melisandre and Davos were very much key to Stannis getting where he was), but I don't truly know if he would be able to do it. I want him to, I think he's the best "candidate" (such as they are), but as he stands he is still much too stubborn. He needs to realise that he will get more if he gives more, basically.

Arya? Well... We know what Martin's like. It would be really weird (though not surprising) if she kills a major character, but at the same time I still half-expect it. Heck, knowing Martin, Arya might end up on the Throne at the end! But no, I think she'll continue be an important character, though I'm not quite sure how.

[KatG]

The dithering that Danys does in Dragons is not just a matter of logistics or her overwhelmed with hard choices. It's also because she locked her dragons up (with one rejecting her and escaping) and they are growing wild and dying. She's cut off the source of her magic. She was able to cobble together an army and take what she took because of her magic and the symbolism of it. Without them, she's like Viserys, just another exiled royal who can be manipulated and herded. But with them, she is someone who becomes the eye of prophecies, such as the Red God sect, and she has power to compel people and countries. With them, she's like her ancestors. Without them, she's like her mad father. She suffers ailments and mood swings because her powers are withering. She fears she is losing control of the dragons as they grow wild and stunted. If she looses them, as some advise her to do, she fears becoming just a mindless tyrant or losing control of them completely. She is weakened, confused, and trapped as her dragons are. The plague that hits the city in the siege is a reflection of that. When she climbs aboard Drogo and heads to the plains, alone without anyone else, she is reconnecting with her magic and figuring out what she will be from there. This is also reflected in the season change -- autumn -- the time of things dying off, withering, stagnating as winter comes. When Danys went on her conquering spree, it was summer. Magic is not just an add-on in the series. It's an organic cycle of the lands, so in Dragons, we get for all the characters, as in Feast, withering and decay, although the Starks are starting to come into their powers, but then the Starks are winter's children.

[SisterChristian]

Bran has never interested me, so, eh. I guess it felt like a totally different book sometimes with Bran's chapters - pure adventure; written well; but just not my Asoiaf.

Reading through this thread I was wondering if I was the only one who wasn't particularly interested in Bran's storyline. Now I don't feel so alone anymore.
I just can't seem to connect to him and his story at all.

[Lazerus]

Bran's chapters are definitely a different tone. And I do think of him less than most of the other characters. For some reason, and maybe a very good one, his part in the story is taking longer to develop. However I think he will be a major player, eventually.

An earlier post (Leorwyn) mentioned Arya getting the throne. If she does, it will be by conquest, but I highly doubt it. Sansa however, is learning how to play the "game of thrones". When reading her chapters, I often think that she is learning well and she will sit on the iron throne, or at the very least be the queen beside the throne. Her husband would make a good king.