A Dance With Dragons (MASSIVE SPOILERS!!!)

[Riothamus]

All I can say is that I hope Jon Snow survived the stabbing some how. He's one of the only characters I don't want to see killed off. I'm also praying for the Starks to come back with a vengeance and kick some Lannister ass. I know a highlight of the whole series is the grey scale morality of the characters and the world they live in, but it seems like no matter what I was always able to feel sympathy for the Starks and absolute disdain for the Lannisters with a few exceptions like the rather tragic Tyrion. I don't know why, but I've always perceived the Starks as more "good" and the Lannisters as downright evil despite this emphasis on the grey.

[Asimovking]

I really think this series will go 8-9 books unless the pace picks up considerably and TWOW and ADOS are 1200 pages each.

5 star rating:

AGOT: 5
ACOK: 5
ASOS: 6
AFFC: 3
ADWD: 2.5

Things I missed:

1. Manderly's Frey pies
2. Theon is Reek (barely caught on right before the reveal)
3. Mance Rayder and the spearwives in Winterfell. By the way, Mance previously bragged about sneaking into Winterfell. In ADWD he goes by the name Abel. So does Abel=Able?
4. Melisandre's visions were telling her Jon Snow is AA.

I was incredibly frustrated with the Dany chapters. They seemed completely pointless to me. I realize it helped develop her character further, but still. This and the slow plot advancement in AFFC and ADWD wouldn't even bother me if we weren't facing a 3-5 year wait for TWOW and again for ADOS. Meereen needs to wrap up at the beginning of TWOW.

I don't care about Asha. I would love to see Victarion join up with Dany and head for Westeros

I really think Dany will return with a Khalassar and destroy Yunkai and Meereen and then finally head for Westeros. Picking up Victarion along the way and sailing for King's Landing to unleash hell.

I love that Connington and Aegon were revealed.

Are we positive Theon was gelded? Can I get a quote or page number on this?

Barristan Selmy is one of my favorite characters now. I loved his fight scene. In his last few POVs I couldn't help but imagine him speaking in a dramatic Liam Neeson voice

I believe Tyrion is Lannister and Jaime and Cersei are Targaryen. I think another clue is that Tyrion is the only of the three whose name starts with "T". Tyrion (son) Tywin (father) Tytos (grandfather). Tyrion is my favorite character. I love his humor in ADWD and I smiled every time he said "Where do whores go?"

I think Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon Snow's parents and if it is revealed as anything other than this it would be ridiculous.

Jon isn't dead. I'm with you guys on him slipping into Ghost's skin. I think Melisandre will heal him and he will lead a wildling army to Winterfell. Stannis is alive. Maybe him and Jon join their armies? I've been rooting for Stannis the whole way, never as who I'd most like to see win the throne though. I don't believe Stannis will win the throne, but he's gonna make one helluva go of it. If GRRM doesn't give Stannis an army then hopefully he killed him off in the Winterfell battle because it would be pointless for him to survive it.

I do believe Jon will find Robb's will and be renamed Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell, Warden of the North.

I want to see Rickon in TWOW. I think GRRM has something epic planned with him and Davos. Plus I love the name Rickon. GRRM is great at coming up with names you would want to give your children. Robb/Rickon Stark, Robert Baratheon, Tyrion Lannister.

The three heads of the dragon are: Dany, Aegon and Jon Snow (but wait, how can he be one of the dragon heads and Lord of Winterfell?)....maybe it will be Rickon who is named Lord of Winterfell.

I believe Ramsay is lying in the letter. How much? I'm not exactly sure.

I think the Green Grace is the Harpy.

Benjen Stark is definitely Coldhands. I never believed Benjen was dead.

I think fan feedback effects how GRRM writes the books. He knew exactly what everyone expected and wanted to happen in ADWD (like Tyrion and Dany meeting up) and he chose to go a different route.

Ok we have two thoughts on the One Eared TomCat: Ayra and Bran. Which do you think it is, if anyone?

I loved the Ayra chapters. I can't wait for her become a super assassin. Who kills Cersei? Ayra or Tyrion?

Robert Strong of course is Gregor Clegane. I really want to see a good bit of action out of Gregor and Sandor in TWOW. Such as: Gregor wins as Cersei's champion, Sandor does something significant and not related to this and then Gregor and Sandor fight eachother one on one....with Sandor being the victor of course

The Wall: I was rooting for it to fall in ASOS and I think it will fall. The Others have the Horn of Joramun. We are in for more action in the remaining books than the first five combined....it's just the waiting on the books that will be the hard part.

I have to throw this in: Before reading ADWD i had read somewhere that Ned Stark was in it. Turns out it was in a flashback. But it got me thinking, so I'm going to make this ludicrous prediction: In TWOW or ADOS we will see the return of Eddard Stark. You heard it here first

WINTER IS FINALLY HERE! THE WINDS OF WINTER WILL BE BRUTAL INDEED!

[tmso]

Asimovking, that was fun reading your assessment!

I don't think Ned Stark coming back is ludicrous at all. Matter of fact, isn't that what the Others are?

Also, Arya will kill Cersei, of course. Arya is already my all time favorite assassin in fantasy fiction (that I've read). I see great things for her.

(Better keep that quiet, eh? Otherwise, GRRM will kill her.)

[Evil Agent]

Are we positive Theon was gelded? Can I get a quote or page number on this?

I agree with most of your observations. I did manage to catch the Frey pie thing, but just barely. I knew Theon was Reek right away, however, considering we've known the Boltons were holding him prisoner and torturing him since Book 3. As for him being gelded, I don't have a quote or page number, but it was pretty heavily hinted at, multiple times in multiple chapters. There were several lines about him not being a "real man" anymore, and he was always terrified at the thought of someone seeing him naked because they would see... (he always stopped his line of thinking before actually spelling it out).

[tmso]

As for him being gelded, I don't have a quote or page number, but it was pretty heavily hinted at, multiple times in multiple chapters. There were several lines about him not being a "real man" anymore, and he was always terrified at the thought of someone seeing him naked because they would see... (he always stopped his line of thinking before actually spelling it out).

I agree that everything GRRM wrote and hinted heavily about would lead us to believe that he is gelded, but he never actually writes that. And no one ever actually says it. So...you never know. Maybe it's just mangled...or something.

[Riothamus]

I wasn't talking about Eddard coming back, I meant like the surviving members of house Stark forming a violent resistance and killing all the Lannisters. Especially Jaime. His hand getting struck off is not enough.

[Evil Agent]

So...you never know. Maybe it's just mangled...or something.

This is true. It may just be flayed... (shudder)

[Werthead]

I think fan feedback effects how GRRM writes the books. He knew exactly what everyone expected and wanted to happen in ADWD (like Tyrion and Dany meeting up) and he chose to go a different route.

Apparently not. He wrote an extremely early version of the scene with Daenerys on Drogon's back in 2000 as the first Dany chapter he wrote for Book 4 in the series (when the five-year gap was still around). So she never met Tyrion in that situation either. In fact, Tyrion himself thinks that if he had declared himself to her, she would have no reason not to kill him instantly. He needs to find another way of ingratiating himself with her that shows his value.

Things I missed:

1. Manderly's Frey pies
2. Theon is Reek (barely caught on right before the reveal)
3. Mance Rayder and the spearwives in Winterfell. By the way, Mance previously bragged about sneaking into Winterfell. In ADWD he goes by the name Abel. So does Abel=Able?
4. Melisandre's visions were telling her Jon Snow is AA.

Did you catch the suggestion of Brandon Stark being a massive arsehole and possibly a rapist of Ashara Dayne? That was the one that floored me when I realised GRRM was pointing in that direction. There was also the confirmation that Elia Martell could not have any more children, so Rhaegar needed a second wife to bear him a third child to fulfil the PWWP prophecy, regardless of whether he fell in lover with Lyanna or not.

There were also the clues about Varys's true loyalties (maybe to the Blackfyres rather than the Targaryens?), the possible 'real' origins of Aegon VI if he is indeed a fake, and of course the heavy clues that Jon Connington was gay and in love with Rhaegar.

There was way more going on 'under the hood' in this novel than any of the previous four.

[Asimovking]

Apparently not. He wrote an extremely early version of the scene with Daenerys on Drogon's back in 2000 as the first Dany chapter he wrote for Book 4 in the series (when the five-year gap was still around). So she never met Tyrion in that situation either. In fact, Tyrion himself thinks that if he had declared himself to her, she would have no reason not to kill him instantly. He needs to find another way of ingratiating himself with her that shows his value.

That's really interesting. I had assumed it would since he actually is on Westeros.org. I guess he avoids all threads of that nature? Btw, for anyone else over there, I joined as Tyrion Baratheon about a week ago.

Did you catch the suggestion of Brandon Stark being a massive arsehole and possibly a rapist of Ashara Dayne? That was the one that floored me when I realised GRRM was pointing in that direction.

No I didn't. I missed so many things in these books. Partly because I was so interested in reading what happens next and I think mostly because I've never read anything anywhere near as complex as ASoIaF. So many layers. I can't wait to reread the books with what I have learned here and over at Westeros.

There was also the confirmation that Elia Martell could not have any more children, so Rhaegar needed a second wife to bear him a third child to fulfil the PWWP prophecy, regardless of whether he fell in lover with Lyanna or not.

What do you think the significance of this is? Do you think it lends even more credence to the Rhaegar+Lyanna= Jon Snow theory?

There were also the clues about Varys's true loyalties (maybe to the Blackfyres rather than the Targaryens?), the possible 'real' origins of Aegon VI if he is indeed a fake, and of course the heavy clues that Jon Connington was gay and in love with Rhaegar.

There was way more going on 'under the hood' in this novel than any of the previous four.

I missed this as well since I was under the impression that Aegon is real. I really want to believe that, but I don't anymore. I'm going to make sure I read the books much much more carefully on the reread.

GRRM is a genius. I see more and more all the time why it takes him so long to write and why he has to rewrite....ASoIaF is insanely complex.

[Werthead]

That's really interesting. I had assumed it would since he actually is on Westeros.org. I guess he avoids all threads of that nature? Btw, for anyone else over there, I joined as Tyrion Baratheon about a week ago.

GRRM isn't on Westeros.org. He actually refuses to go on message boards for reasons of time (too easy to get sucked into them) and also because he doesn't want to be affected by people guessing things correctly or getting things wrong.

His wife Parris and assistant Ty do occasionally visit Westeros, but GRRM is not active on the board.

What do you think the significance of this is? Do you think it lends even more credence to the Rhaegar+Lyanna= Jon Snow theory?

I think it makes it almost completely untenable that the theory is not correct.

[Asimovking]

GRRM isn't on Westeros.org. He actually refuses to go on message boards for reasons of time (too easy to get sucked into them) and also because he doesn't want to be affected by people guessing things correctly or getting things wrong.

His wife Parris and assistant Ty do occasionally visit Westeros, but GRRM is not active on the board.

I could have swore I read somewhere on this site that he sometimes uses Westeros to fact check something when he is in a hurry while writing.

I think it makes it almost completely untenable that the theory is not correct.

Yeah. Some people argue that the majority of people don't even know catch on to the R+L=J thing until the go on a messageboard and the vast majority of readers don't go on boards, therefore GRRM could pull off making it something else. But I disagree. When you add everything up, to me it would be unacceptable for it to be anything else.

[KatG]

I.e. Jon Snow could be the child of Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne. In any case, Jon made his choice to not be the Lord (or King) of Winterfell. That's not his destiny, assuming he still has one.

[Danogzilla]

I could have swore I read somewhere on this site that he sometimes uses Westeros to fact check something when he is in a hurry while writing.

He doesn't use Westeros.org, but he does use the two site administrators via email.

[Werthead]

I could have swore I read somewhere on this site that he sometimes uses Westeros to fact check something when he is in a hurry while writing.

Ah. He uses the website westeros.org, which has collections of information and data on there. He doesn't use the forum westeros.org, which is a separate entity

[Asimovking]

Ah. He uses the website westeros.org, which has collections of information and data on there. He doesn't use the forum westeros.org, which is a separate entity

Oh ok. Thank you

I.e. Jon Snow could be the child of Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne. In any case, Jon made his choice to not be the Lord (or King) of Winterfell. That's not his destiny, assuming he still has one.

At the time of the offer I wanted him to accept becoming Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell. But now it feels like he would be going backwards if he did that. I think he will be involved in the battle for the throne, not necessarily trying to sit on it himself though.