A Dance With Dragons (MASSIVE SPOILERS!!!)

[Ornery Wyvern]

Spoilers be warned!

You have to be joking! Dany ends up realizing she has to embrace her dragons, and the Targaryn words Blood and Fire, and meeting a Kahl she knows in possession of a dragon she has just called from the sky and used to ride down Dothraki like dogs. If she does not end up smashing the slavers with a Kalisar at her back upon dragonback I'll be astonished - which isn't to say it won't happen this is GRRM afterall.

Reek was brilliant and again GRRM managed to make me sympathetic to a character I had dearly wanted to see dead. Circe's commupance was great, lets hope there is more. I was a little surprised to see a new Targaryn thrown into the mix, though I thought it was well done - did you really need to make things more complicated George?

Overall I thought it was a great book, it felt action packed and I cannot think of anything I would have liked cut to advance things further. Looks to me like the next book will begin with the battle at Mereen and then hopefully see Dany in Westeros.

[Werthead]

Yeah, I don't think it's likely that Daenerys will be 'captured' by the Dothraki when she has a massive army-burning dragon sitting next to her. In fact, I think she'll win over Jhaqo (wasn't he one of the Dothraki relatively well-disposed to her before the whole Mirri Maz Duur thing?). Maybe the fact that the dragon is named after Drogo will help as well.

[mars]

it seems that Stannis' wife gets more action that this book

in Winds of Winter some character will receive a letter about the undecided battle of Mereen, HBO will love that, Reek rhymes with pique

[Evil Agent]

I'm about 200 pages in, and really enjoying it so far... but I just skimmed some reviews on Amazon.com, and was surprised to see a lot of mixed-to-negative reviews. I haven't read the whole thing yet, but I'm wondering if ADWD is experiencing the AFFC-effect (namely, that it's almost impossible to live up to the fan expectations after a 5 or 6 year wait).

Anyways, my favourite chapters so far have been Bran's! I've always been a big fan of Bran's storyline, and I forgot how much I've missed him. I just read my favourite chapter so far, where Bran meets the greenseer. Holy crap, that was an awesome chapter! Hodor kicking some wight-ass! Summer being awesome! Children of the forest! Crazy weirwood greenseer guy with mushrooms growing out of his head?!? So good!!!

The first Reek chapter was also good. I've always felt sympathy for Theon (not at first, but definitely by the end of ACOK) and now I just feel awful for him. I hope he gets some sort of redemption (or at least revenge on his captor).

The nice thing about the AFFC/ADWD split is that ADWD seems to focus on the best characters, even more than the first three books.

[Luya Sevrein]

Gah, I wanna' read this thread so badly.

You don't even know.

Damn you, Evil.

[Evil Agent]

Gah, I wanna' read this thread so badly.

You don't even know.

Damn you, Evil.

I'm not reading the thread yet, cause I'm reading slowly, just posting occasional comments.

Still waiting for your copy?

[Raule]

The first Reek chapter was also good. I've always felt sympathy for Theon (not at first, but definitely by the end of ACOK) and now I just feel awful for him. I hope he gets some sort of redemption (or at least revenge on his captor).

I had visions of Renfield from Dracula when I read Reek's first chapter, although fortunately Reek isn't as far gone mentally as Renfield. His situation is bad enough, though.

[sdelu]

Things to look out for:

1) The ingredients to Lord Manderly's pie.
2) Theon having a slight impediment which isn't spelt out.
3) Melisandre getting an answer to her question from her R'hllor flame spell and completely missing it.
4) The name of a ship and where you might have heard it before (in the same book).

Just finished the book. Read too fast to catch most of these things. #3 I think I caught, though (actually, I thought it was a bit heavy-handed), which of course seems to me that the ending of Jon's plotline isn't quite what it seems.

#1 I didn't catch until you put it forth, but three pies...well, it fits.

#2 I still don't see; I'll have to re-read the Reek chapters. Unless you mean what I think you mean, and I wouldn't call that a "slight impediment."

#4 I'll have to look at again, though the task seems rather tedious to me. Perhaps you might simply share?

What else? In a book this long, there are probably tons of little "oohs" and "aahs" I missed.


Edit -- Also, I must have been an idiot not to realize who Abel and the six women were. That's minus points for me.

[Werthead]

#2 I still don't see; I'll have to re-read the Reek chapters. Unless you mean what I think you mean, and I wouldn't call that a "slight impediment."

Yeah, Ramsay gelded Theon. Owch.

#4 I'll have to look at again, though the task seems rather tedious to me. Perhaps you might simply share?

Quaithe warned Dany to beware the 'powdered seneschal'. The ship Tyrion travels to Slaver's Bay on, the one that Victarion rescues Moqorro from, has a name that translates as 'perfumed servant'.

What else? In a book this long, there are probably tons of little "oohs" and "aahs" I missed.

One that I missed was that Jon Connington was gay. Then I remembered his grumping about Elia not being good enough for Rhaegar, and how he remembered Rhaegar visiting Griffon's Roost and gazing out across his lands and telling him beautiful they were (possibly whilst tremulous music played in the background), and realised that was also in the 'ridiculously obvious' category.

[Raule]

SPOILERS AHEAD
(not blacking out, because I usually read from an iPad, and I've never figured out how to highlight the darn things to read them), so be forewarned:

Finished it this morning. I read the first four books in 2005. Before picking up Dance, I did a quickie chapter review, but I really think I need to re-read the entire series to pick up on some of the minutiae and to really feel the full effect of it. There's just too much to remember in a Martin novel. Don't have time for that now, but I'm sure I'll have time before the next one comes out.

Werthead said:

Things to look out for:

1) The ingredients to Lord Manderly's pie.
2) Theon having a slight impediment which isn't spelt out.
3) Melisandre getting an answer to her question from her R'hllor flame spell and completely missing it.
4) The name of a ship and where you might have heard it before (in the same book).

I was suspicious about #1, but didn't really figure it out until later. Then Martin makes a clever nod to it when the Tattered Prince tells Quentyn: In Pentos, we have a saying. Never ask the baker what went into the pie. Just eat.

Re #2, I suspected Ramsay did something to Theon down there, but as to what we'll have to see whether he's been gelded, circumcised or otherwise disfigured in some way. Reek not wanting to take his clothes off was another sign, I think.

Yes, to #3. So many clues with her visions and what the crow says. I didn't care for Melisandre in the earlier books. She felt very sinister and I always suspected she had her own agenda for using Stannis and making people believe she thought he was AA. She's much more humanized in this one, and it will be interesting to find out how her role will help Jon.

#4... I did not catch that one, but now that you mention it, I see what you are referring to.


Other thoughts:

I think the Reek/Theon and Barristan Selmy chapters were my favorite.

You can't believe anything a Bolton says, so... if Roose is alive, I would love to see him be the one that takes Ramsay out.

Relative to the Jon cliffhanger, I think Maester Aemon's advice to Jon was more prophetic than either could have imagined: Kill the boy and let the man be reborn. Melisandre also sees him in the flames: a man, then a wolf, then a man. I firmly believe that Jon, Dany and Tyrion are the three main characters of the series. I don't think their story arcs will be completed until the final book.

Young Griff... don't know what to think yet about whether he's legitimate. What Martin reveals about Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne further entangle the truth with lies.

Septa Lemore... Tyrion is niggled that he should know her, so that tips me off that she's someone from the past we've read about (possibly Ashara, not dead as we thought, since so many others thought dead are turning up).

[Rob B]

Not really a big fan of the series. It's too verbose for my tastes. As I was reading, I kept thinking to myself, "Get to the damn point!"

Then why do you continue to read the series?

[SuicideRin]

I have been saying this for years. Jamie and Ceseri are Targaryen. Im going to paste sections from comment from July of 2005, and then add some stuff.

1) Tyrion is not a Targaryen. In aGoT Twyin actually said "You are my son" to Tyrion on pg 770 of the paperback when he sent Tyrion to be his acting hand. Tywin does have a habbit of saying you arent my son, its his way. Also it slipped by me so many times but Oberyn was gearing up to fight the Mountian he said that "My brother Doran would be most pleased to meet the rightful heir of Casterly Rock" (p 966 aSoS, paperback) WHOOO. Martells are in it DEEP, they were some off the most loyal vassals of the Targaryens, and Doran planned to marry his daughter to Viserys but he was crowned with molten gold. Which segues into Jamie and Ceseri

2) Jamie and Ceseri are Tarargyen spawn. The get buck nutty like good Targaryens, but also in aFfC Jamie's aunt Genna told Jamie that "Tyrion is Tywins son, not you". Some of you may not that earlier in that passage Gemma is talking about how Jamie is like Tyg and Kevan, which raises doubts, but im positive that Tywin married his cousin. Later, starting on page 669 (thats hardback yall), the silent sister, who must be his mother said that his father couldnt stand to be laughed at. Recall in one of the early chapters where were learing about the Ninepenny Kings that Aerys was thrown in a dungeon and mocked. He was rescued by Tywin, but it was the capture that precipitated his decline into madness. The silent sister said that we dont get what we want and Tywin wanted a daugther to be queen and a great knight for a son.

Also add Semly's comments about the night of Tywin's wedding, Jamie's continued thoughts about his parentage, it is SO there.

As for the book itself, I was quite annoyed that I couldn't breeze through by reading chapters named after characters.

[Luya Sevrein]

I'm not reading the thread yet, cause I'm reading slowly, just posting occasional comments.

Still waiting for your copy?

Nope. I got it now. YEY!!

I'm reading it slowly, too.

This has to last... a long time... afterall. >>

[Raule]

I have been saying this for years. Jamie and Ceseri are Targaryen. ...

Also add Semly's comments about the night of Tywin's wedding, Jamie's continued thoughts about his parentage, it is SO there.

That occurred to me too, esp when Selmy says the King wanted Joanna but he stops short of revealing whether Aerys insisted on King's right at the bedding. I just couldn't remember enough from previous books to remember whether timing could have worked for A+J = C & J.

[Werthead]

That occurred to me too, esp when Selmy says the King wanted Joanna but he stops short of revealing whether Aerys insisted on King's right at the bedding. I just couldn't remember enough from previous books to remember whether timing could have worked for A+J = C & J.

It's a tricky one. Cersei and Jaime are roughly 35 in AGoT, so would have been conceived in 262-263 AL. The problem with that is that Aerys II only took the throne and made Tywin his Hand in 262, and his reign started with him being fully sane. The cracks didn't start showing until a good few years later when Ilyn Payne said that Tywin was the real king, not Aerys, and Aerys cut his tongue out. Then he went really do-lally during the Defiance of Duskendale, which was likely in the early-to-late 270s.

So if we're assuming that Aerys sexually assaulted Joanna because he was crazy, that rules out Jaime and Cersei, but the timing works excellently for Tyrion (who was conceived around 271-272). If, OTOH, we assume he did it because he was an asshole even before he went crazy, (and after all, the wedding night where we know 'he took liberties' must have been before Jaime and Cersei's birth and probably their conception, so right around 262-263), then it's possible he's Jaime and Cersei's father.

'First night' was long gone by this time, however. Jaehaerys I abolished it when he took the throne in 40 AL or thereabouts, 230 years before Aerys became king.