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  1. #16
    Are we sure about that started by Selitos bit? I am fuzzy on the ancient times frames, but was presuming that the time of Selitos, Lanre, and the Seven Cities was later than the creation of the fae world, etc. Felurian said that the Amyr were Fae and, "there never were any human Amyr". I had, perhaps unreasonably, taken this to mean that the Amyr predated Selitos, and that he merely began the human tradition.

    I also read an interesting little theory about the key Auri gives Kvothe so he can open the moon being related to the Lackless box. I kinda doubt it, but its an intriguing idea if we think the box a contender for the container Jax used to hold a piece of the moon.

  2. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Ornery Wyvern View Post
    Are we sure about that started by Selitos bit? I am fuzzy on the ancient times frames, but was presuming that the time of Selitos, Lanre, and the Seven Cities was later than the creation of the fae world, etc. Felurian said that the Amyr were Fae and, "there never were any human Amyr". I had, perhaps unreasonably, taken this to mean that the Amyr predated Selitos, and that he merely began the human tradition.

    I also read an interesting little theory about the key Auri gives Kvothe so he can open the moon being related to the Lackless box. I kinda doubt it, but its an intriguing idea if we think the box a contender for the container Jax used to hold a piece of the moon.
    Selitos, Tehlu, Aleph, Haliax, etc were not human. Re-read the Skarpi chapters in NOTW. The events in Myr Tarniel happened 5000 years ago. Kvothe mistakes the Arturan Amyr as the same started by Selitos. The Arturan Amyr church knights were an offshoot, either in the tradition of the original, or more likely, as a logical cover for the actual Amyr to do their work.
    Last edited by 3rdI; August 31st, 2011 at 10:18 AM.

  3. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by 3rdI View Post
    Selitos, Tehlu, Aleph, Haliax, etc were not human. Re-read the Skarpi chapters in NOTW. The events in Myr Tarniel happened 5000 years ago. Kvothe mistakes the Arturan Amyr as the same started by Selitos. The Arturan Amyr church knights were an offshoot, either in the tradition of the original, or more likely, as a logical cover for the actual Amyr to do their work.
    Arturan Amyr was most likely a cover, but then why was it disbanded? if it was so useful a cover they'd just keep it this way. most likely something happened to the Amyr that made them go completely underground...
    maybe it's somehow related to Chandrian being so active - not only disposing of everyone and everything even remotely hinting on their existence, but also communicating with humans (Cinder with those thugs in the woods and a song inspired by Denna's Patron). looks like Chandrian are up to something, and I guess the fact that there are lots of Fae beings in a Kote innkeeper timeline means they succeeded with their scheme.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by molybdenum View Post


    OK, some more:
    The Importance of Names This was touched upon in the "Dislike Kingkiller Chronicles" thread, and the basic gist of it is that the power and abilities within a person are associated with their name. If they were to change or "forget" that name, they no longer have those powers and abilities. This is the state Kvothe is in during the frame story, as he has changed his name, which is why he is no longer available to use his sympathy while he is masquerading as the innkeeper Kvothe.

    This is also the state Kvothe is in when he is in Tarbean for three years. If you read the section, you'll find that he seems to snap out of his normalcy when Skarpi says his name, at which point he gains back that brilliance. This is all subsequent to when he hid his former life (and presumably his name) behind that door of forgetting after his parents were killed.

    To support this theory, in Wise Man's Fear when Kvothe asked Elothe about Denna, he talks about changes one's name. Elothe is beside himself at the idea of someone changing their name, indicating the name has a great deal of importance. This is an excellent theory and I'd have to think there is a great deal of truth to it.
    Elodin is beside himself until he realises that Kvothe is referring to ' calling names '

    Master Elodin,” I asked slowly. “What would you think of someone who kept changing their own name?”
    “What?” He sat up suddenly, his eyes wild and panicked. “What have you done?”
    His reaction startled me, and I held up my hands defensively. “Nothing!” I insisted. “It’s not me. It’s a girl I know.”
    Elodin’s face grew ashen. “Fela?” he said. “Oh no. No. She wouldn’t do something like that. She’s too smart for that.” It sounded as if he were desperately trying to convince himself.
    “I’m not talking about Fela,” I said. “I’m talking about a young girl I know. Every time I turn around she’s picked another name for herself.”
    “Oh,” Elodin said, relaxing. He leaned back against the tree, laughing softly. “Calling names,” he said with tangible relief. “God’s bones, boy, I thought . . .” He broke off, shaking his head.
    “You thought what?” I asked.
    “Nothing,” he said dismissively. “Now. What’s this about a girl?”
    if Elodin is correct, and calling names have no power ( which they almost certainly don't ) then Kvothe calling himself Kote should not be the reason for his loss of power.

  5. #20
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    You could be right, that a calling name and someone's actual name are different, like the name of the wind is different from the word wind. (Complete aside: All this naming stuff is giving me Bartimaeus trilogy flashbacks). In fact, that sounds very reasonable.

    However, it is also possible that when Elodin says "calling names", he means what others call that person. So for example, when Denna says to someone to call her Dianne, it could just be for that person. In reality, she still considers herself to be whatever her actual name is. So when Kvothe refers to himself as Kote, that is changing his name. On the other hand, if he asked people to call him Kvothe but he still considers himself to be Kvothe, thatis only changing his calling name. (Sorry for he Elodin/Elothe thing, I'm terrible with names and I didn't have my book on me to check.)

    Both ideas work for me, though we have had little evidence to suggest people have a name underneath their name. On the other hand, on further reading that conversation with Elodin does seem to suggest the former. Also, even if you are right, it certainly does not rule out that the reason Kvothe has lost his power is because he has changed his name, something I still believe is a very good theory, though I'd never assume that was true.

  6. #21

    Lackless, Ash, and the great manipulation

    Here are some of my responses to some of the theories put forward so far, and my own speculation.

    Laurian = Netalia Lackless: I don’t always pick up on these things, but Rothfuss seems to have given the reader numerous opportunities to make this connection. In WMF, when Qvothe hears the court gossip about Netalia, and after the familiarity of Meluhan’s face, it seemed obvious to me. On a second reading of TNOTW the clues begin to just jump out at you from all over the place. Excellent catch on the end of the song, “Not-tally-a-lot-less.” We know that “Lockless” is one of the variants of the name “Lackless” (an essential variant, in fact), and “lot-less,” if not perfect, comes very close to “Lockless.” That Arliden calls Laurian “My tally” is certainly persuasive. Another reason I agree with the hidden meaning in this song is that otherwise, the meaning of the song is kind of impenetrable.

    The only thing that doesn’t fit is that Qvothe, having Lackless blood, is not, therefore, “bloodless,” even figuratively speaking, but that’s a quibble. Someone mentioned a certain VERY popular theory from ASOIAF. I assume that is R+L=J. I too would put Laurian = Netalia Lackless even higher. I’d say I’m 95%.

    Ash: Is he Bredon? There is evidence here, as stated by Ornery Wyvern, and I missed it on the first read. However, I also think molybdenum’s arguments are fairly persuasive. Why would the vile Ash suddenly be so genuinely open and helpful to Qvothe? We don’t have any answer to make this make sense, but that doesn’t mean there is no answer.

    After re-reading this section today, I am a believer. Much of the evidence cited by Ornery Wyvern is presented by Bredon for no reason that has any impact on the story if not to connect him to Ash. For example, his clothes are ash gray. That’s unsubtle. Also, the first time he leaves Qvothe, he volunteers, “I’m learning to dance.” If he isn’t Ash then this is a deliberate misdirection. Later, there is the court gossip that puts Bredon at some kind of pagan ritual—you know, cavorting with Demons and the like. (Actually, I assume pagan means pre-Tehlin in these books, since it obviously doesn’t mean pre-Christian.) If you favor the idea that Ash is an Amyr, the possibility that Bredon is Ash fits very conveniently with the possibility that there was, not long ago, and perhaps still is, an Amyr in the Maer’s court.

    As to who else Ash might be, it is hard to say, as the clues point inconclusively in numerous directions. He could be Haliax, or a different member of the Chandrian, an Amyr, a Singer, a Sithe, or none of these things. Also, he might or might not be Bredon. Also, he might or might not be the king Kvothe eventually kills. There is no strong evidence for this, except for literary convention: the man who beats the hero’s true-love is always the villain of the story.

    It very creepy when he asks Qvothe “Would you like to know my plan?” He seems to be toying with Qvothe, and that would certainly support the idea that Qvothe is being manipulated.

    What’s their plan? Ash is either a sadistic monster, or he’s using Denna to manipulate Qvothe. I favor the later because much of the story makes more sense if we don’t accept that Denna’s always being in Qvothe’s path is a coincidence. I find it very unlikely that it is a coincidence, as the rest of Rothfuss’s world very noticeably doesn’t work that way. Denna shows up in every foreign country and out of the way town, but Wil and Sim don’t. Denna sings about Lanre, but the singers on stage at the Eolian do not. The only other person who does, aside from Kvothe’s father, is Scarpi, and I don’t think anyone believes Scarpi crossed paths with Kvothe at random.

    No, Denna is there for a reason. What is that reason? My theory is that the Chandrian want to get to or at whatever is behind the Lackless door, and that they discovered, as a result of killing his troupe, that Kvothe was the Lackless heir who had the power to open the door. For that reason, the events that connect Kvothe to Denna, and to the Lackless door, have been planned.

    What is the door? Something to do with life and death? Something related to the downfall of Lanre? Perhaps Haliax merely wishes to die, and perhaps he knows that only one thing could make Kvothe open it – that being to save the woman he loves. So, basically, I think they will use Denna to bring Kvothe to the door and then kill her to make him open it. This would create a strong parallel between Lanray and Kvothe. Denna’s death is also almost unavoidable. Kvothe, as a storyteller, usually remains very much in the mind of his younger self, revealing events only as he lived them. This makes the infrequent interjections from his older and wiser self feel all the more significant. When he talks about Denna, his sense of loss is palpable. This will end in death or total betrayal.

    Unless... I have toyed with the idea that Denna might be Bast. Though apparently male and heterosexual, Bast has an unmistakable affection for Kvothe. He can also disguise his appearance. Bast is a Fey creature - possibly a Dennerling. Denna changing her name indicates that she doesn't know what she is, or that she knows and doesn't like it. I think it is possible that her patron might have summoned her from the Fey. It fits with his "pagan rituals."
    Last edited by sevenwarlocks; October 4th, 2011 at 08:26 PM.

  7. #22

    Denna's Braids

    Continuing my re-read of WMF. Today it struck me for the first time that Denna was using the magic she learned from her patron. She mentions to Qvothe and Wil and Sim that he knows of a form of magic where you write certain things and they become true for you.

    Eloden says specifically that yllish knots are a form of writing.

    After Qvothe learns to read Yllish knots, he notices "lovely" on her braid, which strangely embarasses her. She has used the power of magic writing to make herself more lovely. I missed it the first time through, but Qvothe sees Denna with a braid in her hair on 3 occasions while working for the Maer. The first two times, I assumed Denna was always wearing "lovely," but now I'm not sure.

    During their argument, Denna unties her braid, and re-ties it. This really makes me wonder how she chose to change herself. Was she lovely at the beginning, or was she making herself a musical genius? And what did she turn herself into after Qvothe's outburst?
    Last edited by sevenwarlocks; September 25th, 2011 at 06:13 PM.

  8. #23
    I have a theory that Kvote renamed the Waystone himself, in order to keep himself safe from the Chandrian.

    We know, for instance, that the stones somehow repel the Chandrian or protect people from them:

    1. The old rhyme over what you should do if the Chandrian come "Run away - stand alone, stand as stone" or possibly "standing stone" - the Waystones.

    2. When Kvothe's troupe hear the song, they are stopped for the evening at the standing stones, where the Edema Ruh always stop to make camp. It is only when they are stopped by a fallen tree (most likely deliberately placed) away from any standing stones that they are all attacked and killed.

    3. The wedding party who are massacred removed all of the stones from under their house, that concealed the Vase. Once the stones were gone, the Chandrian had them all within weeks.

    4. The possessed guard is left disoriented when he enters the Waystone - the power of the name is perhaps having the same effect as the real thing?

    5. Kvothe says "Chandrian" and uses their names frequently in the story. We know from the Adem that you mustn't speak their name (I believe more than once in a thousand days) or they will find you. So where are they?

    6. Kvothe is firmly expecting to be killed when he leaves the Waystone at the beginning of TNOTW - why? Because of the Scrael? Or because the Waystone is his last protection against Cinder et al? We know he is "waiting to die" suggesting that someone is coming for him.

    All suggesting that the naming of the Waystone is deliberate. I find it unlikely that Kvothe would simply happen upon a pub named the Waystone (or maybe he did and that is why he has stopped there) and so that suggests to me that it was perhaps his last piece of naming magic that we know of.

  9. #24
    Hmmm, very interesting that makes a lot of sense.

  10. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Ornery Wyvern View Post
    Hmmm, very interesting that makes a lot of sense.
    And also suggests he adopts the name Kote upon becoming the Landlord, as he appears to still be able to wield the power of the namer when he arrives.

  11. #26
    Registered User KingKilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ornery Wyvern View Post
    I doubt Denna would fail to recognize Ambrose, she did date him for a time afterall. Also it seems that his absense from the University during the Trebon Wedding would have been remarked on. I suppose his father is a possibility, but I see nothing to suggest it other than the Jakis's streak of cruelty.

    I've seen a great deal of speculation that Ambrose is the King in question, and yes he is a poet. I have my doubts again, to my mind he is a more probable Penitent King. There definitely seems to be a whittling away of those above the Jakis's in the royal line, but I cannot believe that Alveron would be thrown away. Of course he might come to some grand end in the next book. Its probably a good bet, but it strikes me as perhaps being a little too obvious.

    As for "Poet-Killer" my money is on something more bitter than Ambrose's death, with Sim being the poet who springs to mind.
    I don't think Alveron is in the line of succession; while his family has second-to-none standing, their power lies independent of the throne, so they would not be included in that process. The last thing the king would want is his long time enemy succeeding him.

    Please, please don't say Sim . That is sad just to consider, and he is more of a long shot in succession that the Jakis's

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by emmersonne View Post
    I have a theory that Kvote renamed the Waystone himself, in order to keep himself safe from the Chandrian.

    We know, for instance, that the stones somehow repel the Chandrian or protect people from them:

    1. The old rhyme over what you should do if the Chandrian come "Run away - stand alone, stand as stone" or possibly "standing stone" - the Waystones.

    2. When Kvothe's troupe hear the song, they are stopped for the evening at the standing stones, where the Edema Ruh always stop to make camp. It is only when they are stopped by a fallen tree (most likely deliberately placed) away from any standing stones that they are all attacked and killed.

    3. The wedding party who are massacred removed all of the stones from under their house, that concealed the Vase. Once the stones were gone, the Chandrian had them all within weeks.

    4. The possessed guard is left disoriented when he enters the Waystone - the power of the name is perhaps having the same effect as the real thing?

    5. Kvothe says "Chandrian" and uses their names frequently in the story. We know from the Adem that you mustn't speak their name (I believe more than once in a thousand days) or they will find you. So where are they?

    6. Kvothe is firmly expecting to be killed when he leaves the Waystone at the beginning of TNOTW - why? Because of the Scrael? Or because the Waystone is his last protection against Cinder et al? We know he is "waiting to die" suggesting that someone is coming for him.

    All suggesting that the naming of the Waystone is deliberate. I find it unlikely that Kvothe would simply happen upon a pub named the Waystone (or maybe he did and that is why he has stopped there) and so that suggests to me that it was perhaps his last piece of naming magic that we know of.
    Kvothe only uses their true names once in the story; generic terms used to reference them do not function as a beacon to lead them towards the speaker.
    I think the name is more symbolic as a place for him to rest after the flurry that has been his life up to this point rather than an actual ward against evil or something.
    Kvothe is definitely expected to die because he is facing the scrael with nothing but a heavy stick and some mittens.
    He is waiting to die because he has lost the person he loved most, and is just a shadow of his former self.
    Kvothe has always had a fondness for waystones, and his troupe believed they were safe places, so it stands to reason he would name the place he's spending the end of his days in The Waystone. His naming skillz were already gone by the time his settled down as an innkeep, so it probably did not take any magic to name the inn.

  13. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by KingKilla View Post
    Kvothe only uses their true names once in the story; generic terms used to reference them do not function as a beacon to lead them towards the speaker.
    I think the name is more symbolic as a place for him to rest after the flurry that has been his life up to this point rather than an actual ward against evil or something.
    Kvothe is definitely expected to die because he is facing the scrael with nothing but a heavy stick and some mittens.
    He is waiting to die because he has lost the person he loved most, and is just a shadow of his former self.
    Kvothe has always had a fondness for waystones, and his troupe believed they were safe places, so it stands to reason he would name the place he's spending the end of his days in The Waystone. His naming skillz were already gone by the time his settled down as an innkeep, so it probably did not take any magic to name the inn.
    Roll on the Doors of Stone and we shall see

    Which brings us to another "stones warding off evil" reference - they imprison Jax behind the doors of stone, don't they?

  14. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by sevenwarlocks View Post
    Continuing my re-read of WMF. Today it struck me for the first time that Denna was using the magic she learned from her patron. She mentions to Qvothe and Wil and Sim that he knows of a form of magic where you write certain things and they become true for you.

    Eloden says specifically that yllish knots are a form of writing.

    After Qvothe learns to read Yllish knots, he notices "lovely" on her braid, which strangely embarasses her. She has used the power of magic writing to make herself more lovely. I missed it the first time through, but Qvothe sees Denna with a braid in her hair on 3 occasions while working for the Maer. The first two times, I assumed Denna was always wearing "lovely," but now I'm not sure.

    During their argument, Denna unties her braid, and re-ties it. This really makes me wonder how she chose to change herself. Was she lovely at the beginning, or was she making herself a musical genius? And what did she turn herself into after Qvothe's outburst?
    Nice. Doesn't this tie in (sorry!) with the scene in TNotW when Kvothe is gushing about her beauty and Bast remembers her as far more ordinary. Perhaps Kvothe's reading of the knot has warped his view of her. Perhaps she's not as "Lovely" as he's describing her?
    Last edited by Arnie; June 7th, 2012 at 06:15 PM.

  15. #30
    Stop ... Stop ! I can't take anymore

    I'll have to re-read TNOTW and AWMF again now just so i can get my head around all these possibilities.

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