Kingkiller Chronicles Speculation (Spoilers for both books)

[Balewood]

The oath Kvothe swears to Denna "I swear i wont attempt to uncover your patron, I swear it on my name and my power. I swear it by my good left hand. I swear it by the ever-moving moon."

In the present he goes by 'Kote'
He hasn't shone any power as a namer, failed the sole attempt at sympathy we've seen, and his martial prowess has failed him.
He doesnt play music anymore. ("The left hand is clever" and I belive Kvothe mentions it in conection with his music at the time)

I belive that also connected is "...the story told of how Kvothe had gone looking for his hearts desire. He had to trick a demon to get it. But once it rested in his hand, he was forced to fight an angel to keep it." followed by an "I can belive it. This is the face of a man who has killed an angel"
I think that
'His hearts desire' is denna
Demon=one or more of The Seven
and the Angel is one of those raised at the end of the creation war in Skarpi story.
But if thats true the just what is Denna? Or maybe its Kvothe thats so special? Or Maybe niether maybe its something else?

On a seperate note prehaps Bredon, or Stapes(or even Dagon) are related to the Amyr what do you guys think?

[00nrh]

Kvothe only uses their true names once in the story; generic terms used to reference them do not function as a beacon to lead them towards the speaker.

Alright so I'm not sure if anyone reads these things anymore but I've been working on a theory for a while now. While KingKilla is correct that generic terms don't serve as a beacon he is incorrect as to the number of times that Kvothe has spoken a true name. The first is in NOTW when Kvothe recounts the story of meeting Haliax and the rest of the Chandrian for the first time. Haliax scold Cinder using his real name. The second of course is when the Adem tell him all seven names, both of which time he has to say Cinder's name in order to tell Chronicler the story.

Kvothe is very clear about the length of time and distance to move before ever repeating a name, but this does not seem to be the case with Cinder's real name Felura/Felure. Why would he make such an obvious mistake?

I submit that Cinder is in fact dead. Kvothe has already killed him and that he why he does not fear to speak his name. 1st: When Chronicler first shows up and attempts to persuade Kvothe to tell his story he claims that "Some are even saying there is a new Chandrian". Why would there be a new one if the old one is still there? The story has been very consistent that there are only seven and that the fact there are seven is why they are named the Chandrian.

2nd: When Kvothe speaks of the Adem he talks about receiving the sword Cesura from them and promising to take care of it. But Chronicler notices that the sword hanging above the bar "Folley" doesn't in fact match the description that Kvothe gives for Cesura, so sure it couldn't be the same sword with a different name. Kvothe also confirms this by telling Chronicler that he is clever and that he cant fool him. There is however a sword that matches the description of the sword that Kvothe has in the Bar, Cinder's sword in NOTW. It would make sense that Kvothe would have taken the sword after defeating the Chandrian who killed his family. Also the sword seems to take in light and turn it dull, as seen in the first chapter where Kvothe begins to tell his story, 6 I believe.

3rdly: Kvothe would have excessive reason to seek out vengeance against Cinder in particular. (The following is the result of another theory and is based entirely on my own thinking). Kvothe would want to seek out Cinder for another reason, Cinder is beating Denna. This theory relies on the fact that Cinder is Master Ash. Note the similarity between the names, also the fact that Denna had written a song along with her patron about Lanrey and that it painted Haliax in a favorable light, something a Chandrian might seek to do in order to further skew the nature and identity of the Chandrian. Kvothe also has a run in with Cinder in a bandit Camp during TWMF but doesn't recognize him. In that battle Cinder takes an arrow to the knee and late we are told by the Cthaeh that Master Ash beat Denna with a walking stick. hmmmmm.... Also We notice that both Master Ash and Denna were in that general location before Kvothe left on his errand for the Mayor and when he returned they had both disappeared again. Master Ash and Denna were also both at the wedding party before it was destroyed by the Chandrian.

Master Ash being Cinder also describes Ash's tendency to be so secretive and his constant disappearances for months at a time. He is going to meet up with the other Chandrian. The fact that he is treating Denna poorly as well as the fact that Kvothe is already seeking retribution for his family is more than reason enough to believe that he would have killed Cinder and taken his sword.

[molybdenum]

00nrh, that is utterly brilliant.

I'd also like to alert the thread to the fact that Rothfuss stated that Bredon was not in the original draft of The Wise Man's Fear. (link)

Now, of course this doesn't prove that Bredon is not Master Ash. Rothfuss could be playing coy with us and just referring to the Bredon side of the identity of Bredon/Ash. However, it does make the theory a bit more unlikely. First, and most obvious, there is a good chance that Rothfuss was not being tricky and actually meant what he said.

But second, it would be narratively suspect at any point in the draft to introduce us to Ash as an offscreen character of such importance, and obviously using a fake name, and never introduce him to us onscreen with his alter ego. It could be that the editors realized this and that is why Bredon was put in, but I'm almost certain that is something Rothfuss would have figured out on his own.

This is unlikely to convince those in the Bredon as Ash camp, but I think with this information, as well 00nrh's really good theory, should swing the needle definitively towards the Cinder as Ash theory.

[ashers501]

good theories

heres one for u. a friend of mine is reading the books in spanish (because she is spanish), and cinder's name is ceniza. ceniza in english is ash. my theory is that kvothe is very important and cinder is using denna to manupulate him. im 99% sure cinder is master ash.

i reackon auri is more important than what is let on, and the key she gives him could be the key to opening the doors in the archives.

also the fact that elodin seems to reconise auri is, in my opinion, important. and when kvothe mentions to him that he named her auri because it seemed to fit her, it could be elodin does know her and auri is actualy her name.

about bast, i think he is kvothe and felurian's son. because it doesnt mention how bast became involved with kvothe. and bast shows a lot of afection for him.

well there u have it, a few of my theories

[SharpEyed]

These theories are awesome guys. I have been rereading the books and one thing I would like to note (although there are a few things but to keep myself organized I'll only post one for now):

In the beginning of NotW, Old Cob is telling one of the stories of Taborlin the Great, the one where he is imprisoned by only stone. And apparently Taborlin had only "a key, coin, and candle". Then when I kept reading I picked up that Auri gives Kvothe three gifts: a key, a coin, and a candle. I'm sure there must be some significance to this, although Pat said Auri originally wasn't in the books, so sadly I guess it can't be too significant...

I guess it could just be linking Kvothe and Taborlin once more, just another interesting fact that readers could notice and say "oh that's cool". But still, I feel like it might end up more than that. Who knows. Please Pat come out with the third book! Take your time but still I'm dying here!

[Abenthy]

Earlier Moly mentioned the importance of names and how it affects Kvothe but Rulkez countered the idea by saying Kvothe only changed his calling name.
While this is true (Kvothe only changed his calling name to Kote), there is a passage at the end of NotW (Ch. 92) in which Bast is telling Chronicler that Kvothe's disguise as Kote is so perfect, he's actually turning into Kote the innkeeper.

"It's like everyone tells a story about themselves inside their own head. Always. All the time. That story makes you what you are. We build ourselves out of that story."

"Think of what he said today. People saw him as a hero, and he played the part. He wore it like a mask but eventually he believed it. It became the truth. But now ..." he trailed off. "Now people see him as an innkeeper," Chronicler said.
"No," Bast said softly. "People saw him as an innkeeper a year ago. He took off the mask when they walked out the door. Now he sees himself as an innkeeper, and a failed innkeeper at that. You saw what he was like when Cob and the rest came in tonight. You saw that thin shadow of a man behind the bar tonight. It used to be an act..."

I think the change in calling name induced a change of the deep name. When Kvothe's parents were killed he lost his name behind the door of forgetting which resulted in Kvothe not being who he was before.

Kote on the other hand is not the man he used to be (he changed drastically), which probably resulted in a loss/change of his real name. This makes the change in character hard to undo since Kote has to remember his deep name first. which explains why he can't use the abilities he used to have.

By telling the story however, Kote seems to be remembering more and more of his deep name (just like Bast had planned). This theory is backed up by the epilogues in both books. In NotW Kote was lying eyes open in bed and couldn't get to sleep. In WMF's epilogue Kote tries performing the Ketan. This will probably lead to Kvothe's recovery at the end of the third day.

[Hellerad]

Hey folks, I am new to this forum. I am working my way through NOTW and WMF for the fifth and third time, respectively.

I find the theories re: Kvoth's mother and Cinder as Ash intriguing. The prior seems likely and the latter seems plausible. Cinder as Ash and Bredon makes the most sense. Furthermore, if Bredon had any influence in the Maer's court, he could have very well been the one to suggest to the Maer to have something done about the bandits and may have even suggested sending Kvoth. Bredon makes it very clear that Tak is a game of subtle strategy and it is the strategy that is the part he savors most. Such a calculated move to isolate Kvoth would be a perfect example of such subtlety.

With that said, I would like to add my perspective on the Waystone Inn. It is stated that the chimney running through the Inn (both downstairs and in Kvoth's own room) was a feat of engineering of which Kvoth took pride. I think it is plausible that the Waystone was build around an actual waystone. This could be to shield him as some have suggested herein, or it could have been for purely nostalgic/personal reasons.

Just a thought.

Thank you everybody for your contributions. I am glad that these books have sparked the same fascination in others that I have kindled.

[Lord Pendragon]

While the theory isn't crazy, I just don't buy Bredon as Cinder. Mostly because of the way Ash's personality felt during his first appearance. I could see him as one of the other Chandrian we haven't really gotten a feel for, but personality-wise it just feels...off.

Yeah...the theory definitely has it's points but it just doesn't feel right to me.

[Retrolution]

There are lots of interesting things posted here I didn't think of. I never connected Bredon and Ash, but it makes sense. I like it. Cinder and Ash is interesting, and the names are certainly related (cinder = ember, which becomes ash) and I had considered a Chandrian as Ash, but I decided it's unlikely, as Ash is having Denna write a song about Chandrian, and they kill people who even speak their names.

I basically assumed Ash was an Amyr, and was using Denna as bait to draw out the Chandrian the same way Kvothe's father drew them. I think the positive light that Denna draws the Chandrian in is a red herring---the Chandrian don't want their story told at all. I think Ash's plan is the reason Kvothe will have to "trick a demon" to get his heart's desire---probably in rescuing Denna from them---and "kill an angel" to keep her---he'll have to kill Master Ash to get him to leave Denna alone, or possibly one of the "angels" mention in Skarpi's story who dispense "justice".

I think Laurian as Netalia is too well supported to be a red herring. I think the reader is supposed to know that Melowyn is Kvothe's aunt. There are just too many clues, both obvious and subtle.

Ambrose becoming the king and being killed by Kvothe is another thing that works really well. Everything lines up---Ambrose is in line to be king, and they keep mentioning the people in line before him dying (maybe not accidentally); Ambrose is a poet, and Kvothe's sword was the poet killer; and we know that Kvothe killed somebody in Imre, as the sandy-haired traveler who recognized Kvothe said. Could have been the Amyr, but it's much more likely that it was Ambrose, as both Kvothe and he hang out in Imre a lot.

Does anyone have an idea what's in Kvothe's thrice-locked chest? I assume he can't open it for the same reason he can't do sympathy, and my best guess as to it's contents is that it contains all the 'artifacts' of his former life, like his shoed, rings, and various other paraphernalia. Possibly it was locked away in some kind of spell that also locked away his 'name'. It does greatly resemble the Lockless box, and I've heard people speculate that the Lockless box is the box from Hespe's story, containing the moon's name.

Anyway, Jax stole the moon's name in Hespe's story, and so is most likely Iax, who Bast says stole the moon in the creation war. At first I thought Iax was proabably Haliax, who was depicted on the Trebon vase with the three phases of the moon above him, but when Selitos faces the fallen Lanre (who is Haliax), he's shocked that Lanre can bind him, since only "Aleph, Iax, and Lyra" were his equals in Naming. Also Haliax is free, since he showed up in the first book when Kvothe's troop was killed, and according to Felurian, Iax is "shut beyond the doors of stone."

[Ochos]

Damn i love this, im going to have to reread the books now though

[metheglin]

A couple things that i have been thinking about recently. I think that Stapes is of the Amyr and the bone ring that he gives Kvothe will end up being how Kvothe gets information on the Amyr and their whereabouts. Given his closeness to the Maer and how fervently he serves him, it doesn't seem that he really has anything "outside of his service" to the Maer. Although he says just that when he is giving the bone ring to Kvothe. Also, given what we know from what the cthae told kvothe about the maer being closer to the Amyr than he knows, and the secrecy around the Amyr, this makes perfect sense. The Amyr instilling themselves close to power. It would also giv ehim access to noble libraries to clear them of anything talking about the Amyr. What do you all think?

[Revolvery]

about bast, i think he is kvothe and felurian's son. because it doesnt mention how bast became involved with kvothe. and bast shows a lot of afection for him.

This is a theory of mine as well.

[molybdenum]

I think the only character who I truly believe is an Amyr at this point is Lorren. He is obviously a person of values, and he was pretty quick to shoo Kvothe away from the library once he started looking into the Amyr.

As for Bast being Kvothe's son, just, no. There isn't any real evidence for it at all, and evidence against it. There is an issue with Bast's age. We'd have to assume Fae age much quicker than normal, which we also have no evidence for. The one that kills this one for me is that in order for it to be true, Rothfuss would be hiding from his reader stuff that presumably both Kvothe and Bast know just to be able to reveal it later. This is something that would have come up by now either in conversation, or simply Rothfuss giving us information about the situation.

I'm not sure I'm explaining my problem with this very well. Basically, it would be Rothfuss hiding something from us that should be pretty out in the open just so he can reveal it later. There's no reason he wouldn't have told us this by now other than to be obscuring, and every reason he would so we can better read the interactions to this point.

Also, having a son would give Kvothe a bigger reason to live then he appears to have right now.

[AmethystOrator]

Bast could be Kvothe's son, without Kvothe being aware of it.

If I had to bet, I'd bet against it. But there's a whole lot in this story that Kvothe hasn't picked up on, so this could be just another example (if it's true).

[Speaker]

I am such a fan of these books and the world they create. There are so many mysteries, big ones and small ones. One of the small ones that caught my attention is the tinkers. Has anyone else ever wondered what the tinkers really are? In Hespe's story Iax says he leaves his old broken house to them and I took his house to be a metaphor for the mortal world, then again I might just be crazy. Also did anyone catch the fact that "Kote" means disaster in Siaru? Master kilvin curses at one point in the book and its something like "expect disaster every seven years" and the word that stands out is kote.