Modern Sword & Sorcery

[nuttz96]

I did a search and the last S&S thread was quite old and I have read pretty much most of the works suggested there, so hopefully you guys won't mind a new thread here.

I need some new suggestions! Sword and Sorcery is definitely my most favorite genre, but lately, I haven't come across anything new that has blown me away.

Off the top of my head, some of my favorites are:
Brett's Warded Man
Feist's Riftwar
JV Jones' Sword of Shadows
GRRM's A Song of Ice and Fire
Jim Butcher's Codex Alera
Sherwood Smith's Inda
Hobb's Farseer
Sanderson's Mistborn
Michael Sullivan's Riyria Revelations
Sharon Shinn's Twelve Houses
Rothfuss Patrick's Kingkiller Chronicle
Joe Abercrombie's First Law
Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos
Lian Hearn's Tales of the Otori
Dave Duncan's A Man of His Word
Adrian Tchaikovsky's Shadows of the Apts
Brent Week's Night Angel
Elizabeth Moon's Paksenarrion

I also tried David Gemmell's works. They were good, but I much prefer series over standalones. Same for Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, they were decent, but I much prefer continuous stories over collection of short tales. I enjoyed JV Jones' and Martin's epic series very much, yet I could not get into Malazan even though they are suppose to be similar. Perhaps Malazan's scope is just too big for my taste. I could not get through the fourth book of Wheel of Time, some of the characters became too dull for me and the story just seem to drag on and on. I did not like the narrative of Cook's Black Company. Zelazny's Amber series was pretty good, but I found that the ending to be tangled and confusing. I liked Hobb's long descriptive pose, yet found myself skimming through Mercedes Lackey's works as she tends to rumble off about the most pointless stuff (felt like she could shorten most of her works by at least 100 pages, if she cut out all the unnecessary long talks during travel).

I am also waiting to borrow Stover's Heroes Die and Bakker's Prince of Nothing from a friend. Hopefully these two series will live up to the hypes that they have been getting.

S&S is just pure mindless fun. Even if they are cliched or poorly written, most of the time I will still find them enjoyable. I am sure I left out a lot of good works, so please feel free to discuss and share your favorite Sword and Sorcery books.

[thrinidir]

I'm trying very very hard, but I can't find a single s&s title (maybe with exception of Leiber) among those you mentioned.

Modern s&s? Warhammer, Forgotten Realms and Magic the Gathering tie-in novels for starters.

[Contrarius]

I'm trying very very hard, but I can't find a single s&s title (maybe with exception of Leiber) among those you mentioned.

That might be a good cue for a discussion on what is or is not appropriately categorized as "sword and sorcery"

I think it's pretty obvious that Leiber is. I mean, you see it cited in most discussion of S and S, so it had better be. But how about Abercrombie? It's got lots of swords, it has some sorcery, so why not? Hmmm.....

[Winter]

Sword and Sorcery

I do not think this means what you think it means.

---

I think it's pretty obvious that Leiber is. I mean, you see it cited in most discussion of S and S, so it had better be.

Leiber's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser stories may have hit the pulp market nearly a decade after the likes of Robert E. Howard and Clark Ashton Smith appeared on scene, but they helped to define Sword and Sorcery. That, and Leiber is the one who coined the name.

[chokipokilo]

What about Hobb's other series'?

Maybe Paul Kearney's series, though I've heard it's more of a gunpowder-n-sorcery.

[Rob B]

I would hesitate to categorize the majority of your list as Sword & Sorcery

Brett's Warded Man Epic/High Fantasy
Feist's Riftwar Epic/High Fantasy
JV Jones' Sword of Shadows Epic/High Fantasy
GRRM's A Song of Ice and Fire Epic/High Fantasy]
Jim Butcher's Codex Alera Epic/High Fantasy
Sherwood Smith's Inda
Hobb's Farseer Epic/High Fantasy
Sanderson's Mistborn Epic/High Fantasy
Michael Sullivan's Riyria Revelations Agree, based on the first two books
Sharon Shinn's Twelve Houses
Rothfuss Patrick's Kingkiller Chronicle Epic/High Fantasy plus Bildungsroman, but not really Sword & Sorcery
Joe Abercrombie's First Law Epic/High Fantasy mixed in, but there are S&S elements
Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos This fits as S&S, for the most part though with a mix of mystery
Lian Hearn's Tales of the Otori Haven't read this, but seems more historical fantasy
Dave Duncan's A Man of His Word
Adrian Tchaikovsky's Shadows of the Apts Epic/High Fantasy with Steampunk and Alt history flavors
Brent Week's Night Angel
Elizabeth Moon's Paksenarrion NOT Sword and Sorcery, Military Fantasy

S&S is just pure mindless fun. Even if they are cliched or poorly written, most of the time I will still find them enjoyable. I am sure I left out a lot of good works, so please feel free to discuss and share your favorite Sword and Sorcery books.

Sword and Sorcery often doesn't deal with the EVULZ trying to take over the world on a grand scale and are often more focused on a character or three trying to accomplish more of a singular goal and personal battles

[pat5150]

I agree with Rob...

Patrick

[silvercue]

I think he or she just means Fantasy. Happy to be corrected.

[nuttz96]

So you are saying pretty much that anything that is considered "Epic" cannot be considered Sword and Sorcery?

How would you identify S&S then, especially in modern time? People seem to be stuck with the mind set of the old S&S being Leiber, Conan, and Elric. These books seem to have very little plot, and is just endless fighting. So if we add some complicated plot to it, it no longer become S&S?

Yes I do admit that my list is very exaggerated, but how can you not considered series such as Riftwar, Warded man, Mistborn, Codex Alera, and First Law as S&S? They are action packed, has tons of sword fight, and has magic.

If this thread is not going to go anywhere, we might as well discuss the definition of S&S.

[nuttz96]

hmm crap, seems like I just shot myself in the foot.

Did some research online and found the traditional definition of S&S:

"Unlike epic fantasy, sword and sorcery does not concern itself with world-endangering events; the stakes, rather, are far more personal. The danger to the hero is usually immediate rather than long term. Sword & Sorcery has a strong preference for fast-paced action tales rather than sweeping story arcs. That means there (is usually) no band of heroes facing off against dark lords that seek to destroy the world, but rather a lone hero on a personal quest of some sort.

Sword and Sorcery often has a much darker feel than some of the other subgenre fantasies; brutality is common and morality is not clearly defined. Ancient myths and legends are often incorporated into the story.

The hero of the story is often brooding and morose, sometimes fatalistic and always troubled in some way. The hero may be the shunned outcast, the perpetual loaner, the misunderstood wretch who is pitied. The hero tends to be larger than life, a force of nature who can, at times, defeat more powerful opponents (gods, witches, demons, etc). The hero is not always an unfeeling brute, but might in fact be highly intelligent, though with barbaric traits or uncomfortable habits. In Sword and Sorcery, the end always justifies the means -- even if the means means sacrificing all morality."

I guess the name "Sword & Sorcery" is pretty misleading, as it is more about the protagonist than anything else. I thought that as long as it is action based, and has plenty of fighting, it could be considered S&S. Oh well... I will just try my luck some other time on getting suggestions.

[Rob B]

So you are saying pretty much that anything that is considered "Epic" cannot be considered Sword and Sorcery?

Not exactly and one can have elements of the other, but there is a difference between the two.

How would you identify S&S then, especially in modern time? People seem to be stuck with the mind set of the old S&S being Leiber, Conan, and Elric. These books seem to have very little plot, and is just endless fighting. So if we add some complicated plot to it, it no longer become S&S?

Have you read these books/authors? There's plenty of plot with Elric and Leiber and the Conan stories have more depth than they've historically been thought to have.

Yes I do admit that my list is very exaggerated, but how can you not considered series such as Riftwar, Warded man, Mistborn, Codex Alera, and First Law as S&S? They are action packed, has tons of sword fight, and has magic.

If this thread is not going to go anywhere, we might as well discuss the definition of S&S.

I'd say Mistborn is the least S&S out of those you mentioned mainly because of the stakes - the fate of the world is at stake in Mistborn. Sure there's action and adventure, but bottom line is the fate of the world.

I haven't yet read Codex Alera but from what I've gleaned there are S&S elements in it. I'll redact my statement, slightly, about First Law I'd say it is a good blending of Epic and S&S elements, though [summon author]Mr. Abercrombie can always come in and contradict me[/summon author].

I'd say The Warded Man and Brett's series as a whole is mostly Epic with some flairs of Sword & Sorcery.

Other modern authors who are practicing in the Sword & Sorcery vein:

Paul S. Kemp - Yes the majority of his fantasy work is shared world/Forgotten Realms but the stories are fun. He gets better with each book. The stakes are higher than most S&S, though still have that fun element you might be trying to find. Spring 2012 sees the publication of his first non-shared world novel, a Sword & Sorcery tale.

Swords and Dark Magic is an anthology of S&S tales (released last year) edited by Lou Anders and Jonathan Strahan

James Enge is writing what could be the epitome of modern sword and sorcery in his Morlock Ambrosius stories. The novels work better for some people than they do for me, but he is clearly doing something very interesting in these books.

You could easily fit Ari Marmell's Conqueror's Shadow as Sword & Sorcery.

A lot of what James Barclay is doing could be considered Sword & Sorcery, with a very strong Heroic Fantasy bent.

Whether you are looking for some modern works or trying to determine what exactly Sword & Sorcery is, I like the topic.

Just for completeness's sake, here's the Wikipedia entry on Sword & Sorcery, the first few lines, which can be used for more of a talking point than something to be set in stone:

Sword and sorcery (S&S) is a sub-genre of fantasy and historical fantasy, generally characterized by sword-wielding heroes engaged in exciting and violent conflicts. An element of romance is often present, as is an element of magic and the supernatural. Unlike works of high fantasy, the tales, though dramatic, focus mainly on personal battles rather than world-endangering matters.

Also for completeness sake, I imagine the older thread you mention is this one:
Sword, Sorcery, Likes, Dislikes and Recommendations

Later edit
Nutz, don't worry about shooting yourself in the foot, this is a good topic and just shows how blurry the lines are between the different subgenres.

[Hobbit]

That's fine, nuttz: good of you to give that definition.

The use of sub-genres for easy labelling is always fraught with exceptions and further subdivisions. Though Lieber is credited with coining the term originally, the genre has developed and evolved.

What might be useful, as a start, is the contents list by Strachan and for their collection The New Sword and Sorcery:

Joe Abercrombie - The Fool Jobs
C. J. Cherryh - A Wizard in Wiscezan
Glen Cook - Tides Elba: A Tale of the Black Company
James Enge - The Singing Spear
Steven Erikson - Goats of Glory
Greg Keyes - The Undefiled
Caitlin R. Kiernan - The Sea Troll's Daughter
Tim Lebbon - The Deification of Dal Bamore: A Tale from Echo City
Tanith Lee - Two Lions, a Witch, and the War-Robe
Scott Lynch - In the Stacks
Michael Moorcock - Red Pearls: An Elric Story
Garth Nix - A Suitable Present for a Sorcerous Puppet
K. J. Parker - A Rich Full Week
Michael Shea - Hew the Tintmaster
Robert Silverberg - Dark Times at the Midnight Market
Bill Willingham - Thieves of Daring
Gene Wolfe - Bloodsport

...which gives you some authors to try, if people haven't before. It's a diverse list, and I didn't like them all.

Mark

[nuttz96]

That's fine, nuttz: good of you to give that definition.

The use of sub-genres for easy labelling is always fraught with exceptions and further subdivisions. Though Lieber is credited with coining the term originally, the genre has developed and evolved.

What might be useful, as a start, is the contents list by Strachan and for their collection The New Sword and Sorcery:

Joe Abercrombie - The Fool Jobs
C. J. Cherryh - A Wizard in Wiscezan
Glen Cook - Tides Elba: A Tale of the Black Company
James Enge - The Singing Spear
Steven Erikson - Goats of Glory
Greg Keyes - The Undefiled
Caitlin R. Kiernan - The Sea Troll's Daughter
Tim Lebbon - The Deification of Dal Bamore: A Tale from Echo City
Tanith Lee - Two Lions, a Witch, and the War-Robe
Scott Lynch - In the Stacks
Michael Moorcock - Red Pearls: An Elric Story
Garth Nix - A Suitable Present for a Sorcerous Puppet
K. J. Parker - A Rich Full Week
Michael Shea - Hew the Tintmaster
Robert Silverberg - Dark Times at the Midnight Market
Bill Willingham - Thieves of Daring
Gene Wolfe - Bloodsport

...which gives you some authors to try, if people haven't before. It's a diverse list, and I didn't like them all.

Mark

Thank you!! I have been eyeing some of these authors for a while now, but never really look into them. Ahhh, Gene Wolfe! I remember hounding for his books a while back, but all of his works are so bloody hard to find.

[Hobbit]

Hope it works!

Following what we've said earlier, personally, I don't think Gene Wolfe writes what we would normally regard as S & S, but Shadow of the Torturer (though really SF!) is almost there, as is his Wizard Knight! His was one of the ones in the book I was disappointed with.

Mark

[Cymric]

That's fine, nuttz: good of you to give that definition.

The use of sub-genres for easy labelling is always fraught with exceptions and further subdivisions. Though Lieber is credited with coining the term originally, the genre has developed and evolved.

What might be useful, as a start, is the contents list by Strachan and for their collection The New Sword and Sorcery:

Joe Abercrombie - The Fool Jobs
C. J. Cherryh - A Wizard in Wiscezan
Glen Cook - Tides Elba: A Tale of the Black Company
James Enge - The Singing Spear
Steven Erikson - Goats of Glory
Greg Keyes - The Undefiled
Caitlin R. Kiernan - The Sea Troll's Daughter
Tim Lebbon - The Deification of Dal Bamore: A Tale from Echo City
Tanith Lee - Two Lions, a Witch, and the War-Robe
Scott Lynch - In the Stacks
Michael Moorcock - Red Pearls: An Elric Story
Garth Nix - A Suitable Present for a Sorcerous Puppet
K. J. Parker - A Rich Full Week
Michael Shea - Hew the Tintmaster
Robert Silverberg - Dark Times at the Midnight Market
Bill Willingham - Thieves of Daring
Gene Wolfe - Bloodsport

...which gives you some authors to try, if people haven't before. It's a diverse list, and I didn't like them all.

Mark

That was a great anthology hobbit

I would also suggest
Way of the Wizard not exactly sword and sorcery but i am a huge fan of the short story form