Page 6 of 46 FirstFirst ... 4567816 ... LastLast
Results 76 to 90 of 686
  1. #76
    Originally posted by kahnovitch
    I'd also use 3. don't know why, it just looks right.
    Ah, a barbarian discussing the finer points of grammar. Touching, really.

    Personally, number 2 looks best to me. All punctuation finishes inside quotes.

    Of course, I just got that independent-dependent clause thing down and 'they' went and changed the rules, again, *sigh* (as she goes for her 'creative English' dictionary 'cause it's just something of a game anywhoo.)

  2. #77
    Kiss my axe! kahnovitch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    London /UK
    Posts
    2,534
    posted by ariadne...Ah, a barbarian discussing the finer points of grammar. Touching, really
    We're all barbarians my dear, if you trace your roots back far enough.
    Some of us are more honest about it than others.

  3. #78
    Barcelona! milamber_reborn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Perth, Australia
    Posts
    2,188
    I think you need two questions marks, becasue both are questions. Unless there is a rule against two question marks in one sentence.

  4. #79
    The Doctor... Sammie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Surrey
    Posts
    4,949
    Originally posted by milamber_reborn
    I think you need two questions marks, becasue both are questions. Unless there is a rule against two question marks in one sentence.
    That's how i felt - that two question marks are correct, but i didn't want to PUT that, cos it looks.....well, weird!

  5. #80
    Moonlighting as "David" davie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    California, US
    Posts
    37
    Heh. And we are trying to avoid it looking weird, right?

    Or another way to look at it (assuming our "rule books" aren't in agreement) is how to punctuate it in such a way that it matches your pronunciation. Given that criteria, I'm thinking it'd still be:
    Did he just ask, "Where's the cheese"?
    ...Because whether or not your quoting a questions doesn't really change your inflection if you're also asking a question. (I shouldn't speak so broadly -- that's how it works for me anyway.) I'd use the same basic inflection for the above sentence as, say:
    Did he just scream, "I'm a car"?
    I guess the point is, you'd (or I'd :) put the punctuation where it matches the speaker's inflection. Such as in the following:
    He just said, "Am I a little teapot?"

    Now, who's with me!?
    (Oh crap, double-punctuation, there's a whole new can of worms. Forget I asked. :)

    Peace,
    -David

    P.S. You know I'm just using this conversation as an excuse to make up non-sequitor sentences like, "Did he just ask, 'Am I a car'?", right?

    ...Maybe we should just avoid situations in our writing that'd we'd need sentence structures like that, as Sammie suggested. :)

    (I think what the world really needs is a new punctuation mark that has the comma directly underneath the quote, making whether you put it before or after a non-issue. :)
    Last edited by davie; October 15th, 2002 at 11:20 PM.

  6. #81
    Senior Member Pirate Jenn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    501
    I agree that we should just avoid them. Anything that looks weird (right or wrong), will likely look weird to a reader. Punctuation should do its work invisibaly.

  7. #82
    The Doctor... Sammie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Surrey
    Posts
    4,949
    Am with David. On all of that. Especially the bit about the comma under the quotation mark .

    My philosophy is that, if the sentance looks weird, it needs writing a different way. (but i am no english scholer )

    My question.........is that how you spell Scholar?

  8. #83
    Moonlighting as "David" davie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    California, US
    Posts
    37
    If by "that" you mean, "scholar", then yes, that's how you spell it. (According to TextEdit, my first and most persistant editor.)

  9. #84
    The Doctor... Sammie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Surrey
    Posts
    4,949
    Thank you

  10. #85
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Everywhere
    Posts
    127
    Originally posted by davie
    "Did he just ask, 'Am I a car'?", right?

    (I think what the world really needs is a new punctuation mark that has the comma directly underneath the quote, making whether you put it before or after a non-issue. [/B]
    I just read this whole thread, and found davie's post hilarious. I agree with the second part completely.

    I have another question if someone would like to answer. i think it is a simple one, but for the life of me i cant seem to make sense of my strunk and white section about it. maybe they dont know.

    it is "that" and "which". It must be something so obvious that they felt they didnt need to put it. They just have them bulked together explaining how to use them both but not how to chose which one. I find myself always using which because i like the sound of that better but i am afraid it is not correct, especially since i took off my grammar check due to my hatred for the green lines.

    i need the rule and a nice way to remember it. thanks!

  11. #86
    Moonlighting as "David" davie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    California, US
    Posts
    37
    Weee! More grammar!

    Originally posted by IaNo


    I just read this whole thread, and found davie's post hilarious. I agree with the second part completely.
    I try.

    I should lobby to get that punctuation added. Then again, I was also saying last night that I wanted to lobby to get "adverbs" changed to "meta-adjectives". The fact is, I'm *way* to lazy too lobby for anything. :P

    I have another question if someone would like to answer. i think it is a simple one, but for the life of me i cant seem to make sense of my strunk and white section about it. maybe they dont know.

    it is "that" and "which". It must be something so obvious that they felt they didnt need to put it. They just have them bulked together explaining how to use them both but not how to chose which one. I find myself always using which because i like the sound of that better but i am afraid it is not correct, especially since i took off my grammar check due to my hatred for the green lines.
    All green lines, or just the ones that taunt and mock you? (I don't believe in grammar checkers... I don't believe that they are anywhere sophisticated enough to be of any real use.)

    I had no idea as to the answer to this question, so I did a search for "that or which" (quotes included) in Google and browsed a couple (yes, litterally, only two) of the pages turned up. This one used examples, which was immensely helpful as I am foremost a by-ear grammarian.

    I'm not sure I could verbalize the rule, but I think it will make sense if you read the page.

    A second page is more esoteric in its lesson, but gives some background information which is somewhat helpful after having read the above link and getting a feel for the issue.

    If someone could formulate this into a simple rule, that'd be great...

    Peace,
    -David

    Edit: I'm going crazy over my own use of the word "which" in the second to last paragraph. I can back it up in two ways. (One: stylistically and two: because the clause is not *necessary* to the sentence, nor does it define the information given, just adds a little extra commentary on it.) However, I think "that" could also be used, depending on how you interpret the sentence. Being the author, I will stick by it the way it is written.

    Edit 2: OK, so, here's what I am thinking (well, the pretty thoughts anyway):
    In the sentence above that I am wrestling with, using the word "which" as I do implies that all the background information on the page is somewhat helpful. Using "that" would imply that only some of the given background information is helpful. Either is acceptable but with slightly different meanings. In this case the meanings are so close as to be not worth debating. So what the hell am I doing!?
    Last edited by davie; November 11th, 2002 at 09:46 PM.

  12. #87
    Moonlighting as "David" davie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    California, US
    Posts
    37
    Heh, ok, here goes. I've coggitated on this for a while, and I'll put forth the glib rule I've come up with for communal approval or rejection:

    If the clause being introduced by "that" or "which" could be off-set by commas, you should use "which".

    The same rule rephrased could be:

    If the clause being introduced by "which" or "that" could be removed from the sentence without changing its overall meaning, use "which".

    Any comments on the "rule"?

  13. #88
    Edited for submission Holbrook's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    In the Shire
    Posts
    4,347
    Blog Entries
    42
    Punctuation!!!!!

    The bane of my life!!!!!

    For the most part my grasp of this is improving, the more I write the better it becomes.

    But at the moment I am totally confused.


    Now I have been told by one person that with dialogue-tag punctuation that it is helpful to remember that a comma is used whenever the dialogue-tag describes how the dialogue was spoken.

    Thus:
    “B****r off Lilly,” Mulicifer hissed, pushing the whore back, sending her sprawling across the littered floor.

    And when the part following dialogue indicates action of some sort , the dialogue is punctuated with "end punctuation" and a new sentence begins.

    Thus:

    “Tell me madam, does your pimp pester you as much as mine?” The whore’s eyes widened at his words.

    Yet, and here lies the beginning of my confusion. Another told me that the dialogue-tags when ending in ! ? . should not begin with a captiol letter, unless it is the person's name or I as it is part of the sentence.

    Thus:
    “Here, you’ve not been out working have you?” the ten-year-old potboy Tom’s voice sounded in accusation at Mulicifer’s elbow

    And thus:

    D**n you whore!” he snarled, as the pain in his chest increased, binding him again to the memories that held him locked to his bitterness


    I am assuming that dialogue ending in ?! and full stops, when it is followed by a dialogue tag of some sort, which refers to a character like he, she, and it. I use the last examples. But if it is an action. I use the second.

    If it is straight dialogue I use the first... but what is really confusing, and worrying me is..... Is there exceptions to this damn rule?????

    And I apologise for the examples I have used they are from a very dark piece I am writing, which is stalled and sinking fast.
    Last edited by Holbrook; November 17th, 2002 at 06:23 AM.

  14. #89
    Barcelona! milamber_reborn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Perth, Australia
    Posts
    2,188
    Okay.

    The key is in what comes after the dialogue. If it is a complete sentence (..." The man walked away.) then a full stop, ? or ! must be used.

    If it a continuation (..." Billy said.) then a comma, ? or ! must be used.

    It's quite a common mistake I see in amateur writing. I know people who always make the sentence after dialogue start with a capital letter with a full stop at the end of the dialogue. If the sentence flows after the dialogue when you read it, you can't use a full stop.

    You can learn everything about grammar and technique, adn structure by READING. Just keep on reading a lot of books. Don't just absorb the story. Absorb HOW the author writes.

  15. #90
    Senior Member Pirate Jenn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    501
    "Oh Piggy!" He stomped his flipper. (As the sentence following "oh Piggy" is no tag, it is a sentence unto itself.)

    "Oh Piggy!" he said, stomping his flipper. (and here we see a tag)



    If you look at the selection which follows your dialogue and see that it is a complete sentence, chances are that you should treat it as a complete sentence (capitalize, etc., etc.). If, however, the selection would be a fragment without the dialogue, then it is a tag.

    I think that this is the easiest way to look at it.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •