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  1. #91
    Not related to the trad/non-trad publishing thing: One boom that soon will glut and go bust is Kickstarter. If you're planning on getting your fanbase to "ransom" a work of yours, best get started.

  2. #92
    Riyria Revelations Author sullivan_riyria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KatG View Post
    For you, this seems like a "bigger risk,"
    I didn't say that. I said I'd have no trouble putting something up with Amazon. But I also understand that means I'm giving them a partial license right to the electronic rights in my work that I put up and that they have total control of the Kindle edition for as long as they want if they want, and I don't think a lot of the self-pub authors get that. That was a huge part of the price model fight between the large publishers and Amazon -- that Amazon was taking their license rights for free. And consequently, Amazon had to change its terms with large publishers and with small that gives them less ownership and control. But they haven't done that with the self-pubs. You were asserting that you had total control over stuff with Amazon. I was pointing out that you only have the control over the Kindle edition that Amazon allows you to have or doesn't care about. That doesn't mean that it's a bad deal. Just that each deal has its own set of factors.
    I agree that Amazon has a sandbox and sets the rules...and any author playing in that sandbox needs to keep abreast of the rules and adjust as necessary. And you are right that there are some pretty big items here that should cause authors to look carefully at, and many don't een know they are there. All good points to raise.

    My assertion of "full control" stems from the ability to leave. Not an implication that I could bend Amazon to do anything other than what they desire, and IF they start any kind of widespread sheninagans then yes people may need to act fast. So it's all been a good exchange.

    There is not a single "right path" only one that best aligns with your goals.
    Which I've said about five times now in this thread alone. You really have been a good sport, and I appreciate that you were so willing to talk about this stuff. (Although it may have seemed sort of gobbleygooky to some.)[/QUOTE]

    Yes, I agree that we both understand, unlike some of those who are truly on polar sides of the "which is right - traditional or self" debate that it's not one size fits all. I also have enjoyed our conversation...and hope that it has helped people. It may seem like we've fought like cats and dogs, but I've always respected your perspective, and your respect of mine has also shown through. I think it has been a good discussion.


    Quote Originally Posted by KatG View Post
    I think you and your wife have been very smart. Plus, so far, really like the book. I haven't forgotten that you wanted that author list. I'll try to give you one some time down the road.
    Well my wife is the smart one...I have a small amount of talent. Most of what I've posted here is from watching and listening to her - who has been the driving force in the "business side" of my career. She is pretty smart and savvy and I'm fortunate to have her in my corner.

    Glad to hear you are liking the books. As for the "authors list" I realize that I'm still a newbie and have to earn my stripes. No worries there...I know I'll make it. I'm loving what I do too much to give up now.

  3. #93
    Riyria Revelations Author sullivan_riyria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlyle Clark View Post
    Also, why wouldn't traditional publishers take advantage of POD for the things they would normally let go out of print thereby locking authors in for good.

    I'm guessing it's spelled out in the contract that that's a no go?
    No the contract does not prohibit a traditional publisher from using POD. They have complete discretion in the style and format of the books produced.

    The reason the don't use POD is it doesn't fit in the bookstore chain model. Publishers usually use distributors (like Ingram or Baker and Taylor) who warehouse and then ship books to bookstores. They take advantage of largeish print runs that drive down the print costs.

    Bookstores don't pay for the books when they arrive in the door. They have terms - ususually 60 or 90 days from delivery to make payment. If ordered books don't sell...then the bookstores ship them back to the warehouse (in the case of trade paperback or hardcover) and in the case of mass market paperbacks, simply strip the covers and return those for credit.

    POD doesn't work this way. A book is not produced until there is a buyer for it, and while you can do POD with returns (from say lightning source) bookstores won't order POD books because they would have to pay for them "up front."

    The bookstore system is based around essentially "consignment" sales and the POD model - is "pay on delivery.

  4. #94
    Palinodic Moderator KatG's Avatar
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    And here we go again:

    http://lunch.publishersmarketplace.c...selling-terms/

    One might wish that Amazon stop being quite this melodramatic as a negotiating tactic.

  5. #95
    Things Fall Apart AZimmer23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Mandrake View Post
    Not related to the trad/non-trad publishing thing: One boom that soon will glut and go bust is Kickstarter. If you're planning on getting your fanbase to "ransom" a work of yours, best get started.
    Oh no! JourneyQuest was relying on KS heavily. Damn, I would hate to see that end.

  6. #96
    Riyria Revelations Author sullivan_riyria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Mandrake View Post
    Not related to the trad/non-trad publishing thing: One boom that soon will glut and go bust is Kickstarter. If you're planning on getting your fanbase to "ransom" a work of yours, best get started.
    I'd not heard of any problems at Kickstarter. In fact they've had 3 projects go over 1M just in February. What makes you think that they are in danger of going bust? Was there an article about this?

  7. #97
    Riyria Revelations Author sullivan_riyria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KatG View Post
    And here we go again:

    http://lunch.publishersmarketplace.c...selling-terms/

    One might wish that Amazon stop being quite this melodramatic as a negotiating tactic.
    That came up a few posts back. I wonder what the current sharing numbers were and what Amazon wanted them to be. To be honest...I'm not sure why indie publisheres would use IPG for ebook distribution rather than going direct. (It certainly makes sense for print books) My guess is they are now contractually bound to IPG so they won't be able to place their titles up through DTP so the ones who will suffer the most in this is the authors who have publishers that distribute through IPG.

  8. #98
    Registered User Carlyle Clark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sullivan_riyria View Post
    No the contract does not prohibit a traditional publisher from using POD. They have complete discretion in the style and format of the books produced.

    The reason the don't use POD is it doesn't fit in the bookstore chain model. Publishers usually use distributors (like Ingram or Baker and Taylor) who warehouse and then ship books to bookstores. They take advantage of largeish print runs that drive down the print costs.

    Bookstores don't pay for the books when they arrive in the door. They have terms - ususually 60 or 90 days from delivery to make payment. If ordered books don't sell...then the bookstores ship them back to the warehouse (in the case of trade paperback or hardcover) and in the case of mass market paperbacks, simply strip the covers and return those for credit.

    POD doesn't work this way. A book is not produced until there is a buyer for it, and while you can do POD with returns (from say lightning source) bookstores won't order POD books because they would have to pay for them "up front."

    The bookstore system is based around essentially "consignment" sales and the POD model - is "pay on delivery.
    I see I wasn't even close to clear about what I was asking. What I meant was, that if a publisher deduced a book was not selling enough to make another print run worthwhile, could te publisher just put it into the POD system to prevent it from going out of print and having the rights revert to the author?

  9. #99
    Palinodic Moderator KatG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sullivan_riyria View Post
    That came up a few posts back. I wonder what the current sharing numbers were and what Amazon wanted them to be. To be honest...I'm not sure why indie publisheres would use IPG for ebook distribution rather than going direct. (It certainly makes sense for print books) My guess is they are now contractually bound to IPG so they won't be able to place their titles up through DTP so the ones who will suffer the most in this is the authors who have publishers that distribute through IPG.
    Ah, must have missed it in the flow of discussion.

    There are numerous reasons for them using IPG for e-book distribution. It's a lot cheaper for them to outsource the work. And even if they didn't have their e-books with IPG, if they did their print, which again is highly advantageous for them, then Amazon would have removed the titles in both print and e-book, as they have done now. Even if they're selling direct, all the indie publishers have been at Amazon's mercy for much of the last few years and this sort of thing has happened with lots of the small presses. So the importance of this clash is that if IPG and its publishers can sell through other channels, the Nook and Kobo on down, even after they settle things with Amazon, it does indeed indicate that Amazon's stranglehold on the e-book market for small press and self-pub even is on the way out. It means the considerable expansion of the e-book market, while Amazon will still be a strong player. But they won't be able to do quite as much blackmail as before.

    One problem why the collapse of various large bookselling chains for print books (which again were not caused by the e-book market,) is actually starting to work against Amazon is that it has increased publishers' need to get more on-line vendors for print books as retail outlets dry up. Before, it was fairly simple to let Amazon handle the bulk of the on-line sales and then some chunks to Barnes & Noble and Borders, Waterstones, etc. when they came on-line. But now they need more and those on-line sales vendors for print can then usually also do e-books. So the market is spreading out, whereas before, Amazon dominated on-line bookselling for a good decade. This is why Amazon bought companies like Bookpages, Abe Books, Audible.com, and the Book Depository, all of which were making solid inroads into the online retail book marketplace. And a lot of the smaller chains and big independents have had a lot of success selling on-line for print and e-book business. So these battles will eventually improve terms for all publishers and authors coming into the marketplace.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carlyle Clark
    I see I wasn't even close to clear about what I was asking. What I meant was, that if a publisher deduced a book was not selling enough to make another print run worthwhile, could te publisher just put it into the POD system to prevent it from going out of print and having the rights revert to the author?
    It depends on the out of print clauses in the contract. Potentially a lot of them could. However, it's not worth building up the infrastructure for most of them to do it. There are a lot of problems for publishers with dealing with POD effectively, except for certain operations like reference and educational publishing. Smaller presses would actually be the ones more likely to do it. What gets trickier is when the publisher is licensing the foreign territories sub-rights because they've been given the world rights as their territory. If the contract lets them claim say a German edition of the work on sale as therefore the work being in print, that leads to a lot of disputes. And as Mike pointed out, e-books has become a big issue because potentially then the book never goes out of print. However, the reality is that a large portion of their list is not of critical importance to publishers even as e-books and they very much doubt that they're going to ever reprint down the road. So on many of those titles, they are likely to revert the rights to the author. But there's going to be a lot of negotiations.

    What we're probably going to end up with in the majority is a limited electronic license where the print editions effect when the e-book license can end, plus a set time period after the print editions are done. Say print on sale plus 5 years, or something like that. However, as the print market changes, then that notion will have to change too. It's going to have to do a lot with PR issues as well. Currently, publishers do things to promote e-book editions, but it's largely part of the overall campaign for the book's launch. If publishers have an e-book edition for sale but they aren't doing any promotion for it, then that may start to become a dividing line contractually on out of print.

    Other things that are popping up tech wise that are going to have an effect: hybrid devices that increase even more multi-functionality -- thin laptops where the screen folds back to turn into a large touch tablet, phablets that are smart phones given somewhat larger screens and tablet power and functions, tablets that are compact and have considerably more power and functions than e-reader tablets but are lower priced than iPads and their ilk. Devices are morphing and while the e-reader companies can keep up by expanding their range of devices, it may be that we're going to have a lot of content companies selling the e-books, magazine and newspaper subscriptions, song files, etc. and that's going to have a big impact on the game. Amazon may be able to dominate the e-book market for another five years, especially if Barnes & Noble struggles, but I'm not sure about after that, and globally, there are already Chinese companies and others who are big players in foreign markets. But I do think Amazon will keep growing and flourishing even while not having monopolies because they've positioned themselves well, if kind of ruthlessly.

  10. #100
    Riyria Revelations Author sullivan_riyria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlyle Clark View Post
    I see I wasn't even close to clear about what I was asking. What I meant was, that if a publisher deduced a book was not selling enough to make another print run worthwhile, could te publisher just put it into the POD system to prevent it from going out of print and having the rights revert to the author?
    Yes they could. I doubt many would, but in theory the are completely within their rights to do so and why I have my contract indicate a "income" $ amount and not whether the books is available for sales as a criteria.

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