I could easily see Talisa being Jeyne. Jeyne's the daughter of a noble, albeit a minor one. And nobles' daughters simply don't go off and be nursemaids in wartime. So she's out there under an assumed name so no one ships her back to Daddy for her own safety. I can see Robb falling for her but knowing he can't do anything about it because he thinks she's a commoner. "Well, actually Lord Stark..." That gives her a little more background than just some girl who tended Robb's wounds that he later slept with.
I think she's definitely Jeyne.
Who did Tyrion rape? I've read all the books and some of them twice and I can't recall this.
Tyrion "joined in" on the gang rape of Tysha, his wife. After Tywin gave her to his guards, he "made" Tyrion go last. The guards all paid her with silver coins, Tyrion paid her with a gold one.
This part of the story was left out of the show.
Lastly, why are people in this thread if they haven't read the books? This is the spoiler thread, with spoilers for ALL the books. Beware!
Last edited by Evil Agent; April 26th, 2012 at 02:52 AM.
Really? Did she whisper it? I did hear her add him to the list -- by that time I understood he was there -- but I totally missed that line in that scene. I will have to play it back.Originally Posted by Evil Agent
She's an archetypical tough, brave, feisty good girl. She's tending to the wounded on the battlefield, with a saw, and it is not her job -- it's something that she's chosen to do and is highly dangerous for her to do, which is why Rob is wondering why she's there -- she talks back to the victorious King of the North who could have her killed in two seconds (whether she's a noblewoman or not,) about being a war-monger, she shrugs off his warnings that she should be careful and accept his help. She's the definition of scrappy. It's not a horrible thing; it's just the usual thing on t.v.Originally Posted by Loerwyn
Originally Posted by Spears&BucklerOriginally Posted by SaintjonYou know, it's really wild how often people block this out about Tyrion. My husband forgot it too. And yet, it's a critical experience for him that enormously effects his behavior and sanity throughout the books.Originally Posted by Loerwyn
When he was thirteen/fourteen (in the medieval world of the books, so adjust to 16/17 in the t.v. series,) before the books begin, Tyrion with Jaime rescued an orphaned peasant girl named Tysha from accosters. Tyrion married Tysha and hid out with her for a bit. Then Tywin, his father, arrived, had Jaime admit that Tysha was a hired prostitute and the rescue a set up so Tyrion could have sex, and then Tywin has Tysha raped by his guards and then by Tyrion: "Lord Tywin had me go last...And he gave me a gold coin to pay her, because I was a Lannister, and worth more." Tyrion was young, and being abused by his father in the demand, but he was also angry with Tysha and humiliated and so did the deed. As Bronn points out, it isn't sufficient to say he was forced and had no will. Tyrion contributed in a multiple rape and destruction of the girl he had loved. It haunts him with guilt but also a great deal of anger. It effects a lot of what he does, both bad and good, and with women. In Swords, Jaime tells Tyrion that he lied at Tywin's command and Tysha was not a prostitute but exactly what she appeared, a peasant girl who at least cared about Tyrion. And Tyrion then goes basically insane and does some more bad stuff and stays that way for awhile, including bouts of suicidal thought, running around thinking about Tysha's unknown fate: "where do whores go." So it's kind of seminal for him.
In the t.v. series, Tyrion tells this story to not only Bronn, but also Shae. He says he watched the rapes and then is kind of vague over the issue of participation on his part. They sort of gloss over it, because again, they've been cleaning Tyrion up a bit in the series, making him more sympathetic and noble roguish. So even when Tyrion is ordering his cousin to keep having sex with his sister, people tend to find it charming. But Tyrion has done bad things and does not see himself as a noble person. Watching the gang rape is participating and is not a noble act either. He also does some good things, but there are quite a few other more noble characters in the series -- Ned and Robb Stark, for instance. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the guy, but he's never an angel and very practical minded, even when being sentimental. And he's a rapist, but a regretful one, forced into the same screwed-up mold as the rest of his Gothic family.
Last edited by KatG; April 26th, 2012 at 12:21 PM.
They're saving money for a bigger battle later on1) Opening: best "there was a big battle but we're not going to show it because we can't afford it" technique they've done so far. Also filled the direwolf quota dosage for the night.
Actually, I think this scene is going to replace the one in the book where Cersei has Alayaya beaten up (which happens off-page). So when Tyrion finds out, this is where his 'joy to ashes' speech to Cersei comes from. It's a less-elegant way of getting there, but with Chataya/Alayaya out of the show, making use of the established characters of Ros and Daisy does make more sense. The only problem is that we haven't seen Tyrion meet them on the show and they're not protecting Shae (as Chataya and Alayaya did in the books), so the vehemence of Tyrion's response is going to have to be sold on the grounds of common decency and humanity, which is laudable but a harder sell.3) Far more unnecessary was the Joffrey tortures prostitutes scene. It's not off book that much as I vaguely remember mention that Joffrey tears up a prostitute in the book, but at this point again they really don't need to spend time re-emphasizing in the series that Joffrey is messed up and also furiously fighting with Tyrion. I am by now heartily sick of the prostitutes and would be happy not to see any more of them, after having defended their inclusion in Season 1. They've been over-used as a device this season and as Loerwyn points out, that means other, actual minor characters in the growing story get short-shifted. This isn't Deadwood they're doing. (Not that I didn't love Deadwood.)
This compression of events is also what's going on in the Stormlands. In the books we had the parley between Renly and Stannis and what follows, Melisandre birthing the shadow to kill the castellan of Storm's End and Littelfinger parleying with the Tyrells at Bitterbridge as three separate events (two on-page, one off). This episode just combines all three into one sequence. It's a nice idea, actually, but not sold entirely successfully. Most stupidly, they don't have a CGI model of Storm's End in the background. If they did, it would explain where the grill Davos is complaining about at the end of the episode comes from (otherwise why would Renly's army scout tons of nearby caves and then stick bars in one? Seems extreme for a place where they're staying for just a couple of nights).
Also, it's a bit odd that we've had impressive establishing shots of the Stark and Lannister encampments, making it look like there are thousands of men around, but the absolutely vast Tyrell host doesn't even get a single establishing CGI shot, even when Renly says, "Look at all those men over there."
It's still unclear why Conan Stevens had to leave. According to him, he was not asked back for Season 2 even though, despite his heavy schedule, he could have made it back. According to the producers, he left to work on The Hobbit movies and on the Spartacus TV show. Sounds a bit of an unusual situation.So I'm also sorry that they had to recast as the first guy was perfect. I'll better judge the new guy later now that I know what I'm actually looking at.
The question here is whether Tyrion did rape Tysha in the TV show and he simply didn't tell Shae and Bronn, or whether they've simply changed it so he didn't do it at all (like how they changed it so Sansa didn't directly betray Ned in Season 1). Intereseting to see how that unfolds.You mean, Tyrion the rapist?
I could never understand why people failed to think differently of Tyrion after he killed his father. Murder is murder. The same goes for Arya killing the singer from the Night's Watch. Death might be the penalty for desertion but that wasn't her call to make. I just find it funny that people castigate Dany more for being wishy-washy in Meereen than they do other characters for committing murder.
Last edited by Palfrey; April 26th, 2012 at 11:55 AM.
No, Tyrion knows both Ros and Daisy, which is why he selected them for Joffrey (not knowing that Joffrey would decide to get back at Tyrion by torturing them.) Tyrion slept with Ros when she was at Winterfell and he visited there with the king in Season 1, (the money he gave her from that helped her get down to King's Landing,) and Daisy was the prostitute in bed with Maester Pycelle when Tyrion has him arrested this season. Tyrion gave Daisy three silver coins to make up for scaring her. (I should point out again that I find them to be perfectly nice prostitute characters. It's just that they are being overused, I feel.)Originally Posted by Werthead
Yeah, I had to explain that one to some people. See, originally, they're sneaking in to a fortress... They aren't always perfect at compression and communication. It's such a large production.Most stupidly, they don't have a CGI model of Storm's End in the background. If they did, it would explain where the grill Davos is complaining about at the end of the episode comes from
I think the CGI shots of the other two armies were due to complaints about Season 1, where we really didn't get to see battle scenes. They're still not showing the battle scenes, saving up for Blackwater, but they're saying, see, look, these big armies are fighting each other! Whereas since Renly's host isn't involved in a battle yet in the official story, they content themselves with just talking about how big the army is.but the absolutely vast Tyrell host doesn't even get a single establishing CGI shot, even when Renly says, "Look at all those men over there."
My suspicion is that they will leave it vague or have it be that he did not, because they are afraid the audience will find him unsympathetic, and the incident can still serve as a fulcrum for his character. But watching your wife get gang raped doesn't make you the most noble character in the thing either, is all I'm saying. Martin had reasons for not making Tyrion all heroic, but again, that sort of thing does get most readily tossed on a t.v. show, as you note with even Sansa. Still, they've kept very true to the books overall and certainly in spirit.The question here is whether Tyrion did rape Tysha in the TV show and he simply didn't tell Shae and Bronn, or whether they've simply changed it so he didn't do it at all
All of which is irrelevant to the issue, Palfrey. The point is, Tyrion has his hands dirty too, which he's very well aware of and which effects his behavior. Murder is murder, as you say, and rape is rape.Originally Posted by Palfrey
Because Tywin committed massive crimes and so people tend to see it as an execution, not a murder. Tyrion had been Hand of the King and in charge of dispensing justice. And in the books, Bronn admonishes Tyrion for not killing his father when his father ordered Tyrion to rape his wife. So for Tyrion, he's doing something that he should have done long ago, and in a sense, Tyrion is killing himself for his failures in killing his father. At this point, he's gone mentally unhinged and remains that way for quite awhile. Even more of a murder is Tyrion killing Shae, who really had no choice but to betray Tyrion if she wanted to live. Killing her is also part of his guilt and rage over Tysha and when he's gone around the bend. But still, yes, again, it's part of the darker side of Tyrion and why he's suicidal for awhile. Arya's killing of the singer is also a huge mistake for her, (a bookend with her killing the boy in her escape from King's Landing,) and has a large effect on her character.I could never understand why people failed to think differently of Tyrion after he killed his father. Murder is murder.
As for Danys, people want her to be the scrappy good girl -- the queenly strong warrior female version -- and when she doesn't go whomp ass and keeps trying to find other methods for peace, people get upset because only versions of courage that we associate with very male behavior tend to get valued. On the positive side, we now expect women to be kick ass. On the negative side, we now frequently have a backlash if a woman character is not kick ass and is brave in other ways. Indecision is also not met with much acceptance -- people didn't like Ned's indecision on how to proceed either.
This is what Martin likes to do -- take a character, expect you to see that person in one way and then send the character in a different direction. Then back the other way. The series follows this too, but they are smoothing off the edges so that there is less change, more traditional roles/behavior to an extent. So Stannis is not as layered, etc. But eighty percent of the time, I think they've done a good job.
As for the reasons about not thinking differently about people after they have murdered, all I can say is that this is a different world. Robb has killed countless farm hands and Squires on his battlefields I don't doubt - men he never knew and had no gripe with. At least Tyrion and Arya were wrong.
Death is wrong, but less so in this setting. It is also an expression of human emotion - vengeance, for example. Something that can not be expressed or accepted through or burocratic system but that will drive through most of us at some point. It's a good thing to have in any kind of story - for the good or 'bad' guys.
Well, maybe not... I was shocked when I was little and first found out war had 'rules'. >> I always assumed it would be a last resort because no one was listening to anyone else's rules and sanctions. I guess not much has changed, power, class, who dies, etc. We just pretend it has.
Anyways, not to get off topic - death and murder was more part of life in a place like Westeros, not just in terms of war.
So despite my misgivings about some still pics of Gwendolyne Christie she has panned out as Brienne pretty brilliantly. When I saw Pyatt Pree I actually said, "perfect" out loud. Stannis is more believable as Stannis every episode. Oh and Jaqen! JAAAAAAAQEEEEEEEN! I hope this show gets an Emmy for casting if there is one available. There's so many marks to hit and they keep pulling it off time and again. Everyone in my living room last night vocally agreed that the worst thing about the show is when it ends every week. Great stuff!
Jaquen did great in this episode. I'm getting used to the new faces, but my favorite scene in THe Ghost of Harrenhall is on the Fist of the First Men : the light, the sweeping vistas, Dolorous Edd reprtees to Sam Tarly, Qhorin, even a glimpse of the direwolf: loved its contrast to the golden light in Qarth and the gloom of Harrenhall. Daenerys is a bit too short and pretty to pull off a commanding presence, but Jorah Mormont is doing a good assisting job in her scenes. I know Bran is not everybody's favorite, but he's doing holding his own well against the older actors, especially the exotic wildling Osha.
Things are heating up plotwise, I hope we will get to see Jon's wildling in the next episode and more with Arya. Looking forward also to the clash between Brienne and Jaime.
I believe this is the first episode without sexposition. Hurraah !!!