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April 25th, 2012, 06:56 AM #136
April 25th, 2012, 10:26 AM #137
I could easily see Talisa being Jeyne. Jeyne's the daughter of a noble, albeit a minor one. And nobles' daughters simply don't go off and be nursemaids in wartime. So she's out there under an assumed name so no one ships her back to Daddy for her own safety. I can see Robb falling for her but knowing he can't do anything about it because he thinks she's a commoner. "Well, actually Lord Stark..." That gives her a little more background than just some girl who tended Robb's wounds that he later slept with.
April 25th, 2012, 11:37 AM #138
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April 25th, 2012, 07:52 PM #139
I think she's definitely Jeyne.
Who did Tyrion rape? I've read all the books and some of them twice and I can't recall this.
April 25th, 2012, 08:46 PM #140
Tyrion "joined in" on the gang rape of Tysha, his wife. After Tywin gave her to his guards, he "made" Tyrion go last. The guards all paid her with silver coins, Tyrion paid her with a gold one.
This part of the story was left out of the show.
Lastly, why are people in this thread if they haven't read the books? This is the spoiler thread, with spoilers for ALL the books. Beware!
Last edited by Evil Agent; April 26th, 2012 at 03:52 AM.
April 25th, 2012, 08:47 PM #141Originally Posted by Evil Agent
Originally Posted by Loerwyn
Originally Posted by Spears&BucklerOriginally Posted by SaintjonOriginally Posted by Loerwyn
When he was thirteen/fourteen (in the medieval world of the books, so adjust to 16/17 in the t.v. series,) before the books begin, Tyrion with Jaime rescued an orphaned peasant girl named Tysha from accosters. Tyrion married Tysha and hid out with her for a bit. Then Tywin, his father, arrived, had Jaime admit that Tysha was a hired prostitute and the rescue a set up so Tyrion could have sex, and then Tywin has Tysha raped by his guards and then by Tyrion: "Lord Tywin had me go last...And he gave me a gold coin to pay her, because I was a Lannister, and worth more." Tyrion was young, and being abused by his father in the demand, but he was also angry with Tysha and humiliated and so did the deed. As Bronn points out, it isn't sufficient to say he was forced and had no will. Tyrion contributed in a multiple rape and destruction of the girl he had loved. It haunts him with guilt but also a great deal of anger. It effects a lot of what he does, both bad and good, and with women. In Swords, Jaime tells Tyrion that he lied at Tywin's command and Tysha was not a prostitute but exactly what she appeared, a peasant girl who at least cared about Tyrion. And Tyrion then goes basically insane and does some more bad stuff and stays that way for awhile, including bouts of suicidal thought, running around thinking about Tysha's unknown fate: "where do whores go." So it's kind of seminal for him.
In the t.v. series, Tyrion tells this story to not only Bronn, but also Shae. He says he watched the rapes and then is kind of vague over the issue of participation on his part. They sort of gloss over it, because again, they've been cleaning Tyrion up a bit in the series, making him more sympathetic and noble roguish. So even when Tyrion is ordering his cousin to keep having sex with his sister, people tend to find it charming. But Tyrion has done bad things and does not see himself as a noble person. Watching the gang rape is participating and is not a noble act either. He also does some good things, but there are quite a few other more noble characters in the series -- Ned and Robb Stark, for instance. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the guy, but he's never an angel and very practical minded, even when being sentimental. And he's a rapist, but a regretful one, forced into the same screwed-up mold as the rest of his Gothic family.
Last edited by KatG; April 26th, 2012 at 01:21 PM.
April 25th, 2012, 09:51 PM #1421) Opening: best "there was a big battle but we're not going to show it because we can't afford it" technique they've done so far. Also filled the direwolf quota dosage for the night.
3) Far more unnecessary was the Joffrey tortures prostitutes scene. It's not off book that much as I vaguely remember mention that Joffrey tears up a prostitute in the book, but at this point again they really don't need to spend time re-emphasizing in the series that Joffrey is messed up and also furiously fighting with Tyrion. I am by now heartily sick of the prostitutes and would be happy not to see any more of them, after having defended their inclusion in Season 1. They've been over-used as a device this season and as Loerwyn points out, that means other, actual minor characters in the growing story get short-shifted. This isn't Deadwood they're doing. (Not that I didn't love Deadwood.)
This compression of events is also what's going on in the Stormlands. In the books we had the parley between Renly and Stannis and what follows, Melisandre birthing the shadow to kill the castellan of Storm's End and Littelfinger parleying with the Tyrells at Bitterbridge as three separate events (two on-page, one off). This episode just combines all three into one sequence. It's a nice idea, actually, but not sold entirely successfully. Most stupidly, they don't have a CGI model of Storm's End in the background. If they did, it would explain where the grill Davos is complaining about at the end of the episode comes from (otherwise why would Renly's army scout tons of nearby caves and then stick bars in one? Seems extreme for a place where they're staying for just a couple of nights).
Also, it's a bit odd that we've had impressive establishing shots of the Stark and Lannister encampments, making it look like there are thousands of men around, but the absolutely vast Tyrell host doesn't even get a single establishing CGI shot, even when Renly says, "Look at all those men over there."
So I'm also sorry that they had to recast as the first guy was perfect. I'll better judge the new guy later now that I know what I'm actually looking at.
You mean, Tyrion the rapist?
April 26th, 2012, 04:19 AM #143
April 26th, 2012, 12:37 PM #144
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Spoiler:I could never understand why people failed to think differently of Tyrion after he killed his father. Murder is murder. The same goes for Arya killing the singer from the Night's Watch. Death might be the penalty for desertion but that wasn't her call to make. I just find it funny that people castigate Dany more for being wishy-washy in Meereen than they do other characters for committing murder.
Last edited by Palfrey; April 26th, 2012 at 12:55 PM.
April 26th, 2012, 02:04 PM #145Originally Posted by Werthead
Most stupidly, they don't have a CGI model of Storm's End in the background. If they did, it would explain where the grill Davos is complaining about at the end of the episode comes from
but the absolutely vast Tyrell host doesn't even get a single establishing CGI shot, even when Renly says, "Look at all those men over there."
The question here is whether Tyrion did rape Tysha in the TV show and he simply didn't tell Shae and Bronn, or whether they've simply changed it so he didn't do it at all
Originally Posted by Palfrey
I could never understand why people failed to think differently of Tyrion after he killed his father. Murder is murder.
As for Danys, people want her to be the scrappy good girl -- the queenly strong warrior female version -- and when she doesn't go whomp ass and keeps trying to find other methods for peace, people get upset because only versions of courage that we associate with very male behavior tend to get valued. On the positive side, we now expect women to be kick ass. On the negative side, we now frequently have a backlash if a woman character is not kick ass and is brave in other ways. Indecision is also not met with much acceptance -- people didn't like Ned's indecision on how to proceed either.
This is what Martin likes to do -- take a character, expect you to see that person in one way and then send the character in a different direction. Then back the other way. The series follows this too, but they are smoothing off the edges so that there is less change, more traditional roles/behavior to an extent. So Stannis is not as layered, etc. But eighty percent of the time, I think they've done a good job.
April 27th, 2012, 09:01 PM #146
As for the reasons about not thinking differently about people after they have murdered, all I can say is that this is a different world. Robb has killed countless farm hands and Squires on his battlefields I don't doubt - men he never knew and had no gripe with. At least Tyrion and Arya were wrong.
Death is wrong, but less so in this setting. It is also an expression of human emotion - vengeance, for example. Something that can not be expressed or accepted through or burocratic system but that will drive through most of us at some point. It's a good thing to have in any kind of story - for the good or 'bad' guys.
April 28th, 2012, 05:22 PM #147
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April 28th, 2012, 06:42 PM #148
Well, maybe not... I was shocked when I was little and first found out war had 'rules'. >> I always assumed it would be a last resort because no one was listening to anyone else's rules and sanctions. I guess not much has changed, power, class, who dies, etc. We just pretend it has.
Anyways, not to get off topic - death and murder was more part of life in a place like Westeros, not just in terms of war.
April 30th, 2012, 07:07 AM #149
So despite my misgivings about some still pics of Gwendolyne Christie she has panned out as Brienne pretty brilliantly. When I saw Pyatt Pree I actually said, "perfect" out loud. Stannis is more believable as Stannis every episode. Oh and Jaqen! JAAAAAAAQEEEEEEEN! I hope this show gets an Emmy for casting if there is one available. There's so many marks to hit and they keep pulling it off time and again. Everyone in my living room last night vocally agreed that the worst thing about the show is when it ends every week. Great stuff!
April 30th, 2012, 01:48 PM #150
Jaquen did great in this episode. I'm getting used to the new faces, but my favorite scene in THe Ghost of Harrenhall is on the Fist of the First Men : the light, the sweeping vistas, Dolorous Edd reprtees to Sam Tarly, Qhorin, even a glimpse of the direwolf: loved its contrast to the golden light in Qarth and the gloom of Harrenhall. Daenerys is a bit too short and pretty to pull off a commanding presence, but Jorah Mormont is doing a good assisting job in her scenes. I know Bran is not everybody's favorite, but he's doing holding his own well against the older actors, especially the exotic wildling Osha.
Things are heating up plotwise, I hope we will get to see Jon's wildling in the next episode and more with Arya. Looking forward also to the clash between Brienne and Jaime.
I believe this is the first episode without sexposition. Hurraah !!!