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  1. #181
    Registered User Werthead's Avatar
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    The TV version of Catelyn is not great. She has very little of the decisiveness of the book character and, ridiculously, a lot of the ideas she has in the novel are given to other characters and then used to convince her of what action to take. It's all rather bizarre and serves only to strip TV Catelyn of violition.

    Michelle Fairley is doing an excellent job, it has to be said, and it's not as disastrous a change as has been done to Littlefinger, but the TV character is really nowhere near as interesting or as respectable as the book version.

  2. #182
    Humble Grifter Luya Sevrein's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werthead View Post
    The TV version of Catelyn is not great. She has very little of the decisiveness of the book character and, ridiculously, a lot of the ideas she has in the novel are given to other characters and then used to convince her of what action to take. It's all rather bizarre and serves only to strip TV Catelyn of violition.

    Michelle Fairley is doing an excellent job, it has to be said, and it's not as disastrous a change as has been done to Littlefinger, but the TV character is really nowhere near as interesting or as respectable as the book version.
    You say that as if it's objective, but I disagree. ShowCat was the one to call in her family's bannermen and arrest Tyrion, she was the one to suggest talking to the Frays and arranging terms, she was the one who got Renly on side before his death, and she was the one who told Brienne, 'Right, let's run, I am not dying in this tent.' That is not indecisive to me.

  3. #183
    Palinodic Moderator KatG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luya Sevrein View Post
    You say that as if it's objective, but I disagree. ShowCat was the one to call in her family's bannermen and arrest Tyrion, she was the one to suggest talking to the Frays and arranging terms, she was the one who got Renly on side before his death, and she was the one who told Brienne, 'Right, let's run, I am not dying in this tent.' That is not indecisive to me.
    Those things were all in the books as well. I think Wert is talking about stuff they changed. They made her much more passive while Tyrion was at the Eyrie, for instance, and they did have Ned order her around more. She has a much bigger influence on Robb in the books than in the series so far, about both battles and diplomacy. I do like BookCat more, but I don't find ShowCat to be that off the mark. She has, however, had the edges rubbed off a bit.

  4. #184
    Humble Grifter Luya Sevrein's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KatG View Post
    Those things were all in the books as well. I think Wert is talking about stuff they changed. They made her much more passive while Tyrion was at the Eyrie, for instance, and they did have Ned order her around more. She has a much bigger influence on Robb in the books than in the series so far, about both battles and diplomacy. I do like BookCat more, but I don't find ShowCat to be that off the mark. She has, however, had the edges rubbed off a bit.
    Oh I know, the influence on Robb is the major loss for me, but I don't think she comes across as ineffective or indecisive. Especailly since many haven't read the books, so don't have anything to compare her with.

    My main reason is just because there are no long, rambling monologues about how depressing everything is or wondering how each of her children is. She comes across as a lot stronger on screen.

  5. #185
    Registered User Werthead's Avatar
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    The biggest problem is that in the book it's Cat who points out the political ramifications of Ned refusing Robert's offer and suggesting he take advantage of the post to investigate Jon Arryn's death and Lysa's claims. She's not happy to do it, but she believes it is the best hope of heading off the Lannisters' power-grab and the safest course in the long run.

    Book Cat is a hard-headed political realist, much moreso than Ned, due to her schooling in the politics in the south. It's a major facet of her character and sets her apart from the traditional naive female role (which is fulfilled instead by Sansa) without moving to the also traditional tomboy approach (which is fulfilled by Arya).

    On TV, Cat hates the idea of Ned going south from the start and tries to dissuade him repeatedly in a much more obvious, 'worried wife' stereotypical way. Her political knowledge is still there, but blunted considerably compared to that of her book character.

    In addition, in the books it is Cat's idea to treat with Renly rather than Robb's. Given this is a bold gambit which nearly shifts the axis of the entire war, it's rather unflattering to the character to take the idea away from her, give it to Robb and have Robb have to talk her into it.

    TV Cat is more traditional and more stereotypical a character than Book Cat is. It's not a bad a hatchet job as they've done on Littlefinger, but it is unfortunate.

  6. #186
    Palinodic Moderator KatG's Avatar
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    Again, I think the problem is that they're quite sure that the t.v. audience can't handle certain things about female characters. They do keep pushing things into more stereotypical grooves there. And on that front, I would happily drown poor "Lady" Taleesa. But otherwise, last night's episode was great fun. It's a very weird mix, because they do a lot of lines directly from the book -- I remember them -- and then they'll go off on a tangent, like Jon and Ygritte's It Happened One Night adventure and the dragonettes getting kidnapped by the Undying. I enjoyed the most Arya's second victim dying in the doorway.

  7. #187
    Damn fool idealist DailyRich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KatG View Post
    I enjoyed the most Arya's second victim dying in the doorway.
    That did more to make Jaqen appear like the badass he is than almost anything Martin did in the books. Just brilliantly done.

    I like what they're doing with Dany in Qarth. They're actually forcing her struggle with leadership to be an external one rather than something she thinks her way through. And having to follow her dragons to the House of the Undying makes more sense than her simply deciding to go there.

    And if I may indulge in some stereotypical male behavior, well hellooooooo Tonks...

  8. #188
    Registered User Loerwyn's Avatar
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    So, here we go, another episode. Bloody recap.

    1. I worked out what annoys me about the "new" title screen. The "duh nah nah nah" violin bit is repeated too much.
    2. Well that was a bit sudden.
    3. Chinfluff sucks. Intimidating a disabled child and insulting his aide.
    4. Bronn/Brann/Whatever rocks, though. Fast becoming one of my favourites.
    5. HAHAHA! Burrrrrrrrn
    6. LOOK AT ME I MUST SHOUT AT EVERYONE BECAUSE I CAN'T PUT MY WILLY IN EVERYTHING
    7. OSHA! <3
    8. Wait, what you doing, girl?!
    9. "Kitchen sluts"? Go swivel, Chinfluff.
    10. Haha, Roderick (spelt wrong?) - Awesome.
    11. Can you tell I hate Chinfluff?
    12. Ohhhhhhh, daddy issues. Still hate him.
    13. Hey, a convenient cutting block.
    14. He who... awesome reference to LYORD EDDYARD STYARK
    15. He can't even do an execution. What an utter idiot. I hate you, Chinfluff.
    16. Phew. Ad break.
    17. Jon, I want my hair back. Thanks.
    18. Charles Dance is gooooooood.
    19. Seems almost like Arya and Tywin could be friends.
    20. Littlefinger! You can smell the slime.
    21. Hmm... Me thinks he knows who Arya is.
    22. Ooooh *giggle* redhead :3
    23. GET ON WITH IT YOU GORMLESS TWIT.
    24. Oopsie, he missed.
    25. Woot! She ran away!
    26. What on Earth is he up to? Jon Snow, you are one useless sack of dumbness.
    27. Wow. How graceless is that boat?
    28. Joffrey is a *cough*
    29. Piss off, Joffrey.
    30. YES! SPLAT!
    31. YOU CYAN'T INSYULT MEHHHHHHHHHHHHH
    32. YES! TYRION! ANOTHER SLAP! I'm grinning!
    33. That scene... oh god.
    34. Phew. Hound arrived. But... still.
    35. Too much. Bit too much there. Sorry, but... no.
    36. Weak moment for Dinklage, there, I think.
    37. Daenerys is walking like a robot there. Cleavage window, too. Meh.
    38. Who's the slimy guy in Qarth? I don't like him.
    39. Sarcastic little git. Actually, that's awesome.
    40. No, now he's just a git.
    40b. But he has a point, though.
    41. Daenerys' eyebrows are alive!
    42. She always sounds like she's about to burst into tears, though.
    43. Yup, a flair for drama.
    44. Jamie is dyslexic? Hm. Interesting to see that crop up in a show.
    45. The scene with Tywin and Arya again? Yeah, I can see those characters working well together.
    46. Wow, he gave up quickly.
    47. Door opens, thump. Lawl.
    48. Oooh, there's the medic girl again. Yay.
    49. Ha! Rob(b) got interrupted by his mummy.
    50. He's embarrassed by his mummy!
    51. Very awkward spooning there by Jon.
    52. I like her. She seems awesome.
    53. Can the Wildlings win, please? Please?
    54. She is awesome.
    55. D'awww she's got a crush.
    56. Who's the guy talking to Rob(b)? He seems intelligent.
    57. If Osha doesn't rip Chinfluff's *cough* off, I'll be disappointed.
    58. Nooooooo, don't! You'll catch something! He sticks it in anything that moves, even if its movement isn't... noticeable.
    59. Noooooo :'(
    60. Noooooo again. Now a guard?!
    61. Ooooh! <3
    62. Osha is awesome. Very selfless of her.
    63. Wonder if that was the creepy zombie guy. Hm.

  9. #189
    Illustrious Gambler saintjon's Avatar
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    The intelligent seeming guy talking to Robb is Roose Bolton, Lord of the Dreadfort. His house sigil is a flayed man. His house is very proud and practical about said sigil. Yes, he is intelligent and also horrifically creepy. He is one of those northern lords where the more you learn about him the more you realize Ned Stark was a masterful leader to be able to keep guys like this in check. (as opposed to the ones who make you realize it right away like the Greatjon)

  10. #190
    Registered User Loerwyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saintjon View Post
    The intelligent seeming guy talking to Robb is Roose Bolton, Lord of the Dreadfort. His house sigil is a flayed man. His house is very proud and practical about said sigil. Yes, he is intelligent and also horrifically creepy. He is one of those northern lords where the more you learn about him the more you realize Ned Stark was a masterful leader to be able to keep guys like this in check. (as opposed to the ones who make you realize it right away like the Greatjon)
    I see. Thanks. It still means little to me so far, but he seems like a good right hand man for Robb. For now, anyway.

  11. #191
    Cranky old broad AuntiePam's Avatar
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    I don't mind the sex scenes but I'm annoyed by the romance. These blooming relationships (Rob's and Jon's) may be important to the plot (I've forgotten) but they do slow things down. I have the same issue with romance in books and movies, especially when the focus is on action, mysteries, thrillers -- there shouldn't be time to think about anything except winning the war, solving the mystery, stopping the killer, etc. Guess I'm just getting old.

    Also, while it's nice that the budget allows location filming in Iceland, the mountainous snowy background still looks like CGI. Is it? And while we're there, all I can think is "Those actors must be freezing, and didn't their mothers tell them to wear something on their heads?"

    This episode, I loved that Dany stamped her foot and nobody (except Jorah) even pretended to care. Girl needs to get a grip. She's starting to remind me of the American Idol contestants who think they deserve to win because they want it so bad. "Music is my passion! If I can't do this, I don't want to do anything!" I'm sure Qarth has quickie-marts and they're probably always hiring.

    Jaqen, Bronn, Jorah, The Hound, Tywin -- more interesting to me than any of the major characters, except for Tyrion, of course.

  12. #192
    Gloriam Imperator kged's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AuntiePam View Post
    Also, while it's nice that the budget allows location filming in Iceland, the mountainous snowy background still looks like CGI. Is it?
    I can't quite decide, but I suspect it's probably the usual mix of real scenery with CGI to fill gaps, increase the awesomeness, and hide any inconsiderately-placed hydroelectric plants. One thing I find I keep noticing is the light in the scenes beyond the Wall. I don't know what they're doing, but it has a crepuscular beauty that really takes my breath away. I wasn't expecting it to be so beautiful out there in the wild lands.

    As a change of pace from my usual Maisie praising, I just want to say that Isaac Hempstead-Wright has quite astonishing gravitas for an actor of his age. His first confrontation with Theon left no doubt about who was the boy in that room.

  13. #193
    Illustrious Gambler saintjon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kged View Post
    I can't quite decide, but I suspect it's probably the usual mix of real scenery with CGI to fill gaps, increase the awesomeness, and hide any inconsiderately-placed hydroelectric plants. One thing I find I keep noticing is the light in the scenes beyond the Wall. I don't know what they're doing, but it has a crepuscular beauty that really takes my breath away. I wasn't expecting it to be so beautiful out there in the wild lands.

    As a change of pace from my usual Maisie praising, I just want to say that Isaac Hempstead-Wright has quite astonishing gravitas for an actor of his age. His first confrontation with Theon left no doubt about who was the boy in that room.
    It's very much how I pictured it in the books although I thought there were more trees around the Fist of the First Men (lot of places near where I live where they could've filmed those parts brilliantly). Couldn't agree more about Bran.

    I can't get Ygritte out of my mind! In a season of perfect home-run castings she might be the best yet!

  14. #194
    Saturn Comes Back Around Evil Agent's Avatar
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    Wow...

    For me, each episode is still better than the last. This was my favourite of the season, and probably in my Top 3 of the ENTIRE series so far. So, so good.

    Highlights:
    -The opening scene with Theon blew my mind. So hard to watch. Maester Luwin's eyes, Bran's pleading, Rodrik's final words and botched execution, Theon's face at the end... Simply AMAZING.
    -The riot scene! Very well done. Finally, The Hound! THE HOUND!
    -Jon and Ygritte. Oh my god, I love her. The spooning was one of the cutest, most tender moments of the series so far.
    -The death of Amory Lorch (Jaqen's second kill). Hilarious!
    -Iceland is beautiful (but I already knew that)
    -Ghost! Shaggydog! Summer!

    Low points:
    -I guess the dragon theft is a low point (because it never happened in the books), but honestly I'm okay with it. Dany's story in book 2 was pretty boring, to be honest. The only thing that really bothered me was the death of Irri (and most of Dany's Dothraki).

  15. #195
    Palinodic Moderator KatG's Avatar
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    LOL, this may be your best list yet.

    1. I worked out what annoys me about the "new" title screen. The "duh nah nah nah" violin bit is repeated too much. -- They could only afford so much music.

    2. Well that was a bit sudden. -- It's another, there was a battle, trust us, we just can't afford to show you move. Basically, Theon's ship crew attacked an outpost fortress of the Stark's, and Roderick sent two hundred fighters they still had to fight what was assumed to be a larger force there, on Bran's orders, leaving Winterfell largely undefended. So Theon's thirty men were able to take it since he knew the best ways in to the place.

    4. Bronn/Brann/Whatever rocks -- Bran, short for Brandon. Just think of him as Brandon. Sir Bronn is the delightful mercenary of Tyrion's who now heads the City Watch in King's Landing. I was rather sad to see that the Hills fighters seem to have disappeared from the story in the riot in Kings Landing.

    19. Seems almost like Arya and Tywin could be friends. -- I kept thinking, these two in a spin-off could be good. You've got to love it when a fifteen year old actress can keep up with an actor like Dance. I surrender; she's wonderful.

    21. Hmm... Me thinks he knows who Arya is. -- Yeah, when she's spilling wine on him, sure. Not a great performance for a water dancer.

    23. GET ON WITH IT YOU GORMLESS TWIT. -- Oh come on, he's Ned raised.

    34. Phew. Hound arrived. But... still. -- Yes, and he called her little bird, so perhaps the Hound and Sansa crew will be happier now.

    38. Who's the slimy guy in Qarth? I don't like him. -- He's the spice merchant, part of the ruling council of 13, and the guy who spoke for everybody when Danny was first outside the gates of the city in Episode 4.

    48. Oooh, there's the medic girl again. Yay. -- Boo, it was awful. And no explanation for why she was there either. When Robb first encountered her, she was tending to the Lannister wounded, then she left. Why is she now in the Stark's camp? And unmolested by soldiers as a camp follower, no less. Guess Robb declared her under his protection, which is infernally stupid. The whole plotline has been extremely stupid, for me.

    53. Can the Wildlings win, please? Please? -- It depends what you mean by "winning."

    56. Who's the guy talking to Rob(b)? He seems intelligent. -- Bolton. Shudder.

    62. Osha is awesome. Very selfless of her. -- Yes, but annoying. In the book, Theon just gives her a spear when she asks for one. But this being the t.v. series, she must get naked. (It's a wonder they kept Brienne really.) I did, though, absolutely love them escaping, with the two wolves padding behind them.

    63. Wonder if that was the creepy zombie guy. Hm. -- In the book, Danny goes to the tower voluntarily as part of her attempts to get ships out of the Qarkians. This change with the kidnapped dragons might be interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Auntie Pam
    These blooming relationships (Rob's and Jon's) may be important to the plot (I've forgotten) but they do slow things down.
    Jon's is and has more to do with things than just romance. Robb's may be if it's substituting for Jeyne; otherwise no, it's something to give Robb to do that isn't as expensive as a battle scene.

    Girl needs to get a grip.
    She's not being spoiled. All she's got to defend herself is bluster. They want her dragons and she has nothing. By demanding respect, the play as discussed previously with Jorah is to make them think she might be worth something to them eventually if they humor her. The spice merchant dismisses that option, Daxos is willing to go along with it but wants the marriage or a dragon.

    Jaqen, Bronn, Jorah, The Hound, Tywin -- more interesting to me than any of the major characters, except for Tyrion, of course.
    That's because they get to be cool, nasty and sarcastic, whereas the other main characters are earnest, angsty and sulking. That's why Arya is always the favorite -- she gets to be cool, nasty and sarcastic as well as earnest and angsty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Agent
    Maester Luwin's eyes,
    -- Maester Luwin rocked the whole thing.

    The only thing that really bothered me was the death of Irri (and most of Dany's Dothraki).
    They are prepping for the new arrivals and losing more extra cast members cause it's cheaper, I think.

    Next episode sounds like a combo of a set-up episode and the Undying material, or at least some of it.
    Last edited by KatG; May 7th, 2012 at 10:42 PM.

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