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  1. #1
    Humble Grifter Luya Sevrein's Avatar
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    Steven Moffat and Doctor Who.

    May contain Spoilers, especailly for Christmas 2011.

    I hateDISLIKE Steven Moffat.

    Of course... I don't, not really, having not met the man, but I hate his storytelling and I hate his attitude and for some reason I'm really angry about it today? I am long over accepting that he is taking my favourite thing and slowly ruining it, in fact, I think, this Christmas, I managed not to care until now.

    I also understand opinions and points of view, and that many people may enjoy the stories he tells and the direction he takes Doctor Who and other projects. For example, I do actually like his Sherlock rehash to a degree. But lately, in terms of Doctor Who, I don't know what is going on.

    I do not like his characterization - the doctor talks too much in an attempt to be witty and amusing, but is always answering himself and never engaging in proper dialogues, which is sad since Smith is quite good. His companions, and the infamous River Song come across as selfish, not the kind of people you'd want with the fate of the world in their hands, and he can't seem to work out his motivation. He wants everything burrowed down to it's most shallow level - sex. Sexy, kissing, snogging, sexy times, yet he's also obsessed with decanting children and children's hopes, dreams and fluffy rainbows into every episode. Oh, and for the record, the Doctor never did think much of appearance - I doubt he's shallow enough to care if someone got fat.

    But all that aside, because it is subjective, I have another idea that I want to ask for opinions upon. I don't believe that Moffat is telling good stories. Yes, sometimes, RTD did use cliche endings, or deux ex's, but the journey was wonderful at least. Moffat's stories seem to have no structure, no frame, they confuse many people, and leave the rest of us underwhelmed. There are few subplots, there is little character development, there is no mystery, no effort on the part of the viewer, no suspense. The building blocks of narrative, the magic of STORY, lacks. Side characters come and go, with nothing being learned about them or their purpose. For example, you have BILL BAILEY in your Christmas Specail? You give him, what? Four minutes of screen time in a nameless role.

    Now he's just getting lazy, including such wishy-washy elements as 'Just make a wish and I'll find you'. This isn't some kind of super-hyped-fantasy. At least the magic had some basis in psuedo-science prior to this. He also does not take into account the paradoxical nature of his storylines or the previously established rules of the Whoniverse. He also includes such wonderful ideas as simply making the TARDIS invisible. Why? The whole quirk is the broken perception filter. Those tree folk also could have had some interesting ties to the woman from 'The End of the World'... I mean, hell, there's so much that could be done.

    I just feel as if I am watching something from someone who doesn't have a passion or a respect for the universe which he is expanding. It's like having someone who's openly admitted to not being bothered about Wheel of Time continue for Jordan just because he can have some kind of psuedo-power in an established world.

    Not to mention his attitude - which is just appauling. He shows little respect for previous writers and those who have worked on what he, now, is working on, and even less respect to those fans of his work. But that has little to do with a man's skill, so, hey.

    Anyways... Christmas rant, complete.

  2. #2
    @PeteMC666 PeteMC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luya Sevrein View Post
    Of course... I don't, not really, having not met the man, but I hate his storytelling and I hate his attitude and for some reason I'm really angry about it today? I am long over accepting that he is taking my favourite thing and slowly ruining it, in fact, I think, this Christmas, I managed not to care until now.
    I actually thought the Christmas special was one of the better ones this year. Which, sadly, isn’t saying much.

    I did think he might at least have ended it with a nod of respect to all the lost bomber crews who didn’t have a Magic Interstellar Jesus Man to get them home safe for Christmas but hey, guess not.

    I do not like his characterization - the doctor talks too much in an attempt to be witty and amusing, but is always answering himself and never engaging in proper dialogues, which is sad since Smith is quite good. His companions, and the infamous River Song come across as selfish, not the kind of people you'd want with the fate of the world in their hands, and he can't seem to work out his motivation.
    Each incarnation of the doctor is a different personality. This time around, he just happens to be a bit of a dick.

    He wants everything burrowed down to it's most shallow level - sex. Sexy, kissing, snogging, sexy times, yet he's also obsessed with decanting children and children's hopes, dreams and fluffy rainbows into every episode.
    I can but assume someone at BBC HQ stuck a post-it on Moffat’s screen which says “remember it’s a kids show but has to entertain the adults too”. Every now and then he reads the post-it note, and someone has a snog while fluffy things happen, then he goes back to being bewildering for another three episodes.

    But all that aside, because it is subjective, I have another idea that I want to ask for opinions upon. I don't believe that Moffat is telling good stories. Yes, sometimes, RTD did use cliche endings, or deux ex's, but the journey was wonderful at least. Moffat's stories seem to have no structure, no frame, they confuse many people, and leave the rest of us underwhelmed. There are few subplots, there is little character development, there is no mystery, no effort on the part of the viewer, no suspense. The building blocks of narrative, the magic of STORY, lacks.
    I’m not sure I agree with this – Moffat is the man who gave us the Gas Mask Kid and the Weeping Angels the first time round, when they were actually scary, so the man can definitely tell a story. I think the problem is he’s trying to tell a Doctor Who story, when it feels like he’d rather be writing Alien. Strangled by the constraints of his target audience and official guidelines, maybe?

    For example, you have BILL BAILEY in your Christmas Specail? You give him, what? Four minutes of screen time in a nameless role.
    That, I agree, was a tragic waste of a BILL BAILEY!

    Now he's just getting lazy, including such wishy-washy elements as 'Just make a wish and I'll find you'.
    That bit was utter cack, I agree.

    This isn't some kind of super-hyped-fantasy.
    Actually, these days it kinda is...

    Anyways... Christmas rant, complete.
    Good rant Luya

    I’ve got to say I’m not a fan of RTD and had high hopes for Moffat based on the previous two stories mentioned above, but... meh. So far, it’s not been good.

  3. #3
    Registered User Loerwyn's Avatar
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    No, I think they're fair criticisms. If you look back at discussions we've had for the past series or two of Who, it's largely been on the negative side of things. The only episodes I truly, truly enjoyed from last series were the Gaiman ep, A Good Man Goes to War (and no, not just for the <3 Silurian lady and her partner <3) and the episode with James Corden in it after the Doctor dropped Amy and Rory. Oh, and this Christmas special wasn't exactly bad as such.

    The problem is that instead of old Who which had a lot of arcs that took up four or five episodes, the new one stretches plotlines through a series and the rest involves lots of running about. The thought process of the Doctor is cut short literally by an hour or two of screen time and that means he's not as deep, the plots can't be as strong and so on. There's barely enough time to set the scene and get the problem going.

    I do like aspects of the new Who - Alex Kingston in tight trousers, Alex Kingston, Alex Kingston, some of the other support characters who appear - but largely it's over-convoluted plotlines that have a disappointing end, a bit like sex I guess.

  4. #4
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    moffat

    I agree about The Grand Moff's current spell on Who. Overall I didn't enjoy the last series.

    IMO he is being very self indulgent and should be producing stories like the ones he claimed to have grown up with.

    Anyway, when I'm fed up with it I watch some classic Pertwee and Baker stories.

  5. #5
    @PeteMC666 PeteMC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loerwyn View Post
    The only episodes I truly, truly enjoyed from last series were the Gaiman ep
    Which was excellent, but by Gaiman

    the <3 Silurian lady and her partner <3)
    They were awesome and really should have their own series by now.

    and the episode with James Corden in it after the Doctor dropped Amy and Rory.
    Oh yeah, I’d forgotten the episode of “Gavin and Stacey and the Doctor”. I like James Corden but... no.

    The problem is that instead of old Who which had a lot of arcs that took up four or five episodes, the new one stretches plotlines through a series and the rest involves lots of running about. The thought process of the Doctor is cut short literally by an hour or two of screen time and that means he's not as deep, the plots can't be as strong and so on. There's barely enough time to set the scene and get the problem going.
    Again I wonder if this is the whole being strangled by the guidelines thing. To do the big series-long plots is one thing, but when they have to have an episodic nature to suit the show you end up with pointless bits of “chase the monster” thrown in for no good reason and it all ends up feeling a bit of a mess IMO.

    Alex Kingston in tight trousers
    Oh hell yeah

  6. #6
    Humble Grifter Luya Sevrein's Avatar
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    I like Alex Kingston as an actress, though I'm not a huge River Song fan. It was kind of hallerious when they were getting married, though, as it seemed as if she were forcing him into it. Poor Matt Smith, she'd snap him like a twig. But she doesn't seem entirely Time Lord esque - it's more of a 'I CAN READ GALIFRAEN AND TRANSFORM WITH PERDY LIGHTS' but I'm still dumb as a beetle when Mr. Moffat says so, so the Doctor can rescue me! Yey! All her riddles, and mysterious, sexy lady persona melting away whenever she is in danger screaming for the Doctor. Ugh. But then, I'm not a huge fan of any of the female characters. They all seem to have to use something - sexyness, crying... Bar, I suppose, Silurian lady.

    The self indulgance is exactly what I meant! Yes, thanks. It's not as if the writing of the show is getting worse and therefore I lose interest. I understand that the writing is not to my tastes and bar the disrespects and plot holes shown, I don't care. But the atmosphere of the show is changing. The Doctor changes persona and traits, yes, but never his more deep morality, that is always shown to change in a timeline. Yet, this guy, whoever he is, blows up a whole Sontaran fleet just... Because. Because it looks cool, because it's a message. I know the Doctor has done awful things, like killing a whole race of waking children because he missed someone, but, it's always added to who he is, his character, he regrets it, or silently atones, it affects him. Nothing this Doctor does affects him or anyone around him. Like Gaiman's episode, for example, which I loved, apart from at the end where there was little emotion shown towards House, this thing who had killed and imprisoned so many Time Lords and then used them against the Doctor - oh, as well as their TARDI...TARDIS'... Hm. Well, anyway, I was screaming for some Dark Doctor Tennant stare-downs going on there. But no. I'd love to see Matt get dark, maan.

    The Doctor has always had a high morality, a warped sense of honour, of right, of his own heroism and such. It's part of who he is, a thread running through him no matter who he becomes. Now he's just this guy, screwing around. His companions too, are... Gah. Okay, when Amy killed Madame Kovarian.. .The epic villainess who really did NOTHING, because Moffat can't tell a story. That could have been such an amazing plot twist/series ending. The Doctor, no matter how much he loves Amy, refuses to travel with a Cold-blooded Killer, realizing his hypocrisy but not taking it into account because he thinks he's better than everyone else. He will not forgive her for what she has done. It all gets very emotional, yadda yadda. But no... Nothing, nothing at all. Not even a questioning of her actions by Amy. Not even a 'You were the one meant to be showing me a better way,' by River. Nothing. These characters do not grow. They are nobody, with no feelings.

    This also goes to the heart of the issue mentioned - no shout outs to the unluckier Pilots. Like at the end of Family of Blood? The Show has always been very respectful, very British, very... I don't know. I love the Doctor because he's like that. Even if he does get people killed, even if he can be selfish or arrogant. He will respect the right people, honour the right causes... I don't know. It's all going to hell. It's all shallow.

    Oh, and yes, Moffat did give us the Weeping Angels, back when they were scary and generally good. What he has turned them into? I have no interest in.

    -Pant-

    All though, I did like the fact Alexander Armstrong was a Fighter Pilot. Made me giggle.

  7. #7
    Registered User Luke_B's Avatar
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    I liked the Series 6. Not as much as Series 5, but I liked it all the same. I don't think it's at the hieghts of Tenant's era and I hope it will get back there at some stage before it's canned, but I would still count it as one of my favourite shows. I'm a bit of a Doctor Who fanboy, but I'd like to think I could tell it was going down the crapper, and I don't think that's the case. I find it is one of the only shows on TV that seems to be written by people who understand science fiction literature, and not just science fiction as it has been filtered through other popular culture. I do agree that I'm increasingly less interested in the Moffat written episodes and I am becoming more interested in other writers. Which is funny because I've just rewatched all of series 1 with Christoper Eccleston playing the 9th Doctor and the Moffat episodes ("The Empty Child" and "The Doctor Dances") were superb. I also really liked Paul Cornell's "Father's Day" and Robert Shearman's "Dalek". I hope they bring Cornell and Shearman back to write more episodes, and I would like to see more Mark Gatiss and Tom MacRae.

  8. #8
    Ink-stained Wretch Teresa Edgerton's Avatar
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    I liked the Christmas special, quite a bit. Maybe because there was no River Song. I did feel that her character came close to ruining every episode she was in. And since she was in a lot of them ... not my favorite season by a long shot.

    I don't know why Steven Moffat is so enthralled by her character. She has no depth, and now she's not even mysterious.

  9. #9

    I've washed my Hands of Steven Moffat!

    Quote Originally Posted by Luya Sevrein View Post
    May contain Spoilers, especailly for Christmas 2011.

    I hateDISLIKE Steven Moffat.

    Of course... I don't, not really, having not met the man, but I hate his storytelling and I hate his attitude and for some reason I'm really angry about it today? I am long over accepting that he is taking my favourite thing and slowly ruining it, in fact, I think, this Christmas, I managed not to care until now.

    I also understand opinions and points of view, and that many people may enjoy the stories he tells and the direction he takes Doctor Who and other projects. For example, I do actually like his Sherlock rehash to a degree. But lately, in terms of Doctor Who, I don't know what is going on.

    I do not like his characterization - the doctor talks too much in an attempt to be witty and amusing, but is always answering himself and never engaging in proper dialogues, which is sad since Smith is quite good. His companions, and the infamous River Song come across as selfish, not the kind of people you'd want with the fate of the world in their hands, and he can't seem to work out his motivation. He wants everything burrowed down to it's most shallow level - sex. Sexy, kissing, snogging, sexy times, yet he's also obsessed with decanting children and children's hopes, dreams and fluffy rainbows into every episode. Oh, and for the record, the Doctor never did think much of appearance - I doubt he's shallow enough to care if someone got fat.

    But all that aside, because it is subjective, I have another idea that I want to ask for opinions upon. I don't believe that Moffat is telling good stories. Yes, sometimes, RTD did use cliche endings, or deux ex's, but the journey was wonderful at least. Moffat's stories seem to have no structure, no frame, they confuse many people, and leave the rest of us underwhelmed. There are few subplots, there is little character development, there is no mystery, no effort on the part of the viewer, no suspense. The building blocks of narrative, the magic of STORY, lacks. Side characters come and go, with nothing being learned about them or their purpose. For example, you have BILL BAILEY in your Christmas Specail? You give him, what? Four minutes of screen time in a nameless role.

    Now he's just getting lazy, including such wishy-washy elements as 'Just make a wish and I'll find you'. This isn't some kind of super-hyped-fantasy. At least the magic had some basis in psuedo-science prior to this. He also does not take into account the paradoxical nature of his storylines or the previously established rules of the Whoniverse. He also includes such wonderful ideas as simply making the TARDIS invisible. Why? The whole quirk is the broken perception filter. Those tree folk also could have had some interesting ties to the woman from 'The End of the World'... I mean, hell, there's so much that could be done.

    I just feel as if I am watching something from someone who doesn't have a passion or a respect for the universe which he is expanding. It's like having someone who's openly admitted to not being bothered about Wheel of Time continue for Jordan just because he can have some kind of psuedo-power in an established world.

    Not to mention his attitude - which is just appauling. He shows little respect for previous writers and those who have worked on what he, now, is working on, and even less respect to those fans of his work. But that has little to do with a man's skill, so, hey.

    Anyways... Christmas rant, complete.

    I agreed with every word you've said.

  10. #10

    Red face I've washed my Hands of Steven Moffat!

    Sorry hit the wrong button before.
    but just to clarify, I haven't washed my hands of Doctor Who! Only Steven Moffat's endless cliches.
    I HAVE NO IDEA what he plans to do BUT I would not be the least bit surprised IF he has :
    1. Jenna turn out to be a newly restored River Song from the computer. That would be beyond stupid! Like we the fans of Doctor Who could just forget that psycho stalker from hades held the entire universe hostage and refused to let the Doctor fix it unless her ransom demand was met? Which marriage to this sick psycho freak? She is no Time Lord! That whole time-head storyline was such crap! 2 Humans cannot produce an alien child! Period! That is the sort of garbage one might expect from a really bad fanfic but not from a so-called professional! Of course I also hope she isn't a). Romana b) The Rani or c) Jenny. In Moffats hands they would be a disaster.
    2. This 3 year build up to be all about Bringing Omega back! What a joke! I DO like the idea of bringing him back BUT not with a 3 yr build up! Good grief! There was none of this big build up when he returned in 'Arc of Infinity' so why exactly does he deserve a 3 yr treatment?
    3. Bringing back the Time Lords. Again, a 3 yr build up was never needed. What kind of loon is Moffat? I think he has gotten so full of himself that he believe he can do no wrong. And what's scary is that some of his fans actually believe that laughable concept to be true!
    I mean how can any sane rational person accept that 2 people conceiving a baby inside the Tardis would produce a Time Lord or even half Time Lord! THAT IS INSANE!! In fact it smacks of the archaic rubbish in the old 1950's comic books where super heroes and super-villains obtained their super-powers via being exposed to radiation. LOL!! Hundreds of people have traveled inside that Tardis. I guess Mr Moffat has conveniently forgotten this fact! So if the Vortex can seep through the force-field of the Tardis and affect people this way, why hasn't it affected anyone else. In any shape, manner or form? So this whole storyline is just plain stupid!
    However if River had been a good character and not this boorish, obnoxious stalking psychotic puke of a character, I might have over-looked it. And also if Moffat wasn't this condescending know-it-all who is so dismissive of all who don't share his high opinion of himself. rme
    I've watch Doctor Who for over 30 yrs! Tom Baker was my first Doctor and he is of course my favorite. I love the old classic series and Like some of the new stuff. David T is my 3rd favorite Dr. I didn't care much for Rose but I did like Donna. My favorite female companion is Romana. She is the Dr's equal in many ways and she IS a bona-fide Time Lady who actually did better then the Doctor did at the Time Lord Academy. She learned things the old fashion way. Including how to fly the Tardis. By studying the manual NOT by having everything just dumped inside her head. How stupid and lazy was that?
    I keep praying Moffat is let go. Let him focus on Sherlock. don't care for that show but I know many on my Dr Who facebook page do. They hate his writing for Dr who and love it on Sherlock. So I guess he does have some talent, Just not for writing for science fiction long term. going to try my hand at fanfic. may suck but I bet it's still better then anything Moffat has done to date. And I too bring many old characters back BUT without a 3 yr build up. Sometimes only 1 or 2 stories. lol
    Last edited by smartypants; May 14th, 2012 at 10:49 AM.

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