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  1. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven L Jordan View Post
    From Star Wars? Not a bit. For sure, the first movie (Episode IV) centered specifically around Luke and his relationships: He fell in love with a woman; lost his aunt and uncle to an evil empire, making the war personal; and made a lot of new friends, most of whom helped him enough to allow him to become a hero. But nothing about it, or of the subsequent movies, ever gave me the impression that is could all be real. (I had more of that impression from Alien.)

    Episode IV was, and always has been, a fairy tale with spaceships. And the relationships in it were very "fairy tale" as well, all positive and happy. I'd consider the relationships in, say, Galactica (the reboot) to be more realistic: People aren't perfect, so their relationships aren't perfect. I could probably name more, but you get the idea.
    Let's consider Luke. He was, at first, guided by impulse, revenge, anger. He lost his uncle and aunt, and Obi Wan saw him as one who had much to learn.

    Did we see that learning? Hardly. Just learning to wield a sword. -Sure, he saved himself from the snowbeast at the beginning of the 2nd episode through telepathic power. But it was almost before his time. Yoda also considered him a novice.

    But we never saw this "Force" in-depth. This "amazing power" was never really seen. What else could Luke do? If Obi Wan was so noble to lay down his own life, what else is noble? There had to be more. But we didn't see it.

    On a more "superficial" level, let's look at Chewbacca. An interesting character. Lots of "history" and fascination that could have been discovered about Chewbacca and his race/planet of origin. But it didn't happen.


    Going back to an earlier post, I was thinking just today: the character of Jesus Christ certainly must be one of the most "sci-fi" individuals of all history! Think about it: raising the dead; walking on water; healing people just by speaking it; feeding thousands with a load of bread; escaping an angry crowd by "passing through them;" being transfigured into a being of light.... It just goes on and on!

    And yet so many people say they follow this mysterious character.. but can't believe in the possibility of life on another planet!


    If they ever made a "Close Encounters 2," I'd be very demanding of them. I'd expect to see awesome (peaceful) powers and a lot of the telepathy/healings/astral-travel-type stuff!
    Just what kind of experience was it to board that ship and leave forever with them?

    (Hint: if it's up to Hollywood, it'd probably be all about blood and guts..)

    brian

  2. #77
    I like SF. SF is cool. Steven L Jordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
    Let's consider Luke. He was, at first, guided by impulse, revenge, anger. He lost his uncle and aunt, and Obi Wan saw him as one who had much to learn.

    Did we see that learning? Hardly. Just learning to wield a sword. -Sure, he saved himself from the snowbeast at the beginning of the 2nd episode through telepathic power. But it was almost before his time. Yoda also considered him a novice.

    But we never saw this "Force" in-depth. This "amazing power" was never really seen. What else could Luke do? If Obi Wan was so noble to lay down his own life, what else is noble? There had to be more. But we didn't see it.

    On a more "superficial" level, let's look at Chewbacca. An interesting character. Lots of "history" and fascination that could have been discovered about Chewbacca and his race/planet of origin. But it didn't happen.
    Luke wasn't in Star Wars to learn; he was there to rise from simple and unlikely circumstances to become a hero... every boy's dream come true. SW was never intended to be high-minded or revelatory, it was a live-action comic book.

    And people ate it up with a ladle.

    Not all movies (or books, for that matter) have to have deep philosophical bases or important life lessons to dole out, and there's little point in beating up movies for not having those things when they never intended to have them in the first place.

    Instead, beat up on media that tried to explore those areas, like, say, Altered States, Solaris, Minority Report, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
    Going back to an earlier post, I was thinking just today: the character of Jesus Christ certainly must be one of the most "sci-fi" individuals of all history! Think about it: raising the dead; walking on water; healing people just by speaking it; feeding thousands with a load of bread; escaping an angry crowd by "passing through them;" being transfigured into a being of light.... It just goes on and on!
    Or just an influential man with an overzealous PR machine.
    Last edited by Steven L Jordan; July 16th, 2012 at 04:49 PM.

  3. #78
    Registered User gainespost's Avatar
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    Aw, I really liked Solaris.

  4. #79
    I like SF. SF is cool. Steven L Jordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gainespost View Post
    Aw, I really liked Solaris.
    Oh, so did I. I didn't mean to suggest those movies failed in their production, but that those movies were created to be psycholigically challenging, and so those are the movies about which we should discuss psychological values... not movies that had no psychological values, like Star Wars.
    Last edited by Steven L Jordan; July 16th, 2012 at 07:09 PM.

  5. #80
    Registered User gainespost's Avatar
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    Ah ok; I think I see what you're saying. But Luke's yearning to break away from his uncle's farm and see the world (galaxy) was not exactly shallow non-psychological fluff; it's a real emotional challenge that many adolescents go through. Well, maybe not the galaxy part.... :-p

    It was an adventure story. Doesn't really matter what category / genre people try to fit it into; sf, fantasy, opera, etc etc ~ It was an adventure with cool space ship scenes :-) And a good adventure needs a hero with understandable motives; without those, it's hard for us to relate with him or her. Imo :-)

  6. #81
    I like SF. SF is cool. Steven L Jordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gainespost View Post
    Ah ok; I think I see what you're saying. But Luke's yearning to break away from his uncle's farm and see the world (galaxy) was not exactly shallow non-psychological fluff; it's a real emotional challenge that many adolescents go through. Well, maybe not the galaxy part.... :-p
    I daresay most adolescents experience the desire to leave home and seek adventure. If nothing else, it's a familiar desire that needs no explanation to the audience. And the only possible source of conflict--approval of his aunt and uncle--were removed, making the decision a no-brainer. That's why there's no psychological edge to the decision. Now, if Owen and Beru were left alive, and his leaving would sacrifice the farm or risk the alienation of the only parents he's ever known... that's heavy stuff.

    Anyway, like I said, Star Wars wasn't meant to be heavy... and it wasn't. It was meant to be a thrill ride, which it was.

    Personally, when I think of SF movies with heavy psychological messages, I think of the P.K. Dick movies (Blade Runner, Minority Report, Through a Scanner Darkly, Readjustment Bureau), Vanilla Sky, 1984, Solaris, Gattaca, like that. As it so happens, all of them had strong adult relationships, and they weren't alone. Most of them were slim on detailed character backgrounds, but we are talking about 2-hour movies, here.

    A similar list of books would take me longer to put together, but they're out there.

  7. #82
    Registered User JunkMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
    On a more "superficial" level, let's look at Chewbacca. An interesting character. Lots of "history" and fascination that could have been discovered about Chewbacca and his race/planet of origin. But it didn't happen.
    You mean you've never seen the Star Wars Holiday Special in which Han and Chewie have to get back to Chewie's home planet, Kashyyyk, to celebrate 'Life day' (the most important day in the Kashyyykian calendar) with his wife Mala, son Lumpy, and father Iggy?

  8. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by JunkMonkey View Post
    You mean you've never seen the Star Wars Holiday Special in which Han and Chewie have to get back to Chewie's home planet, Kashyyyk, to celebrate 'Life day' (the most important day in the Kashyyykian calendar) with his wife Mala, son Lumpy, and father Iggy?
    Wikipedia says Kashyyyk was also mentioned in episode three. But I had so completely lost interest in the direction they were taking the story that by part two I was basically uninterested.

    But from your description of Chewbacca's "family," I get the feeling that creativity was somewhat lacking here, too. --After all, why do aliens have to have uncles, aunts, wives, etc..??


    brian

  9. #84
    Man of Ways and Means kennychaffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
    .--After all, why do aliens have to have uncles, aunts, wives, etc..??


    brian

    For evolutionary purposes.

  10. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by kennychaffin View Post
    For evolutionary purposes.
    From a physiological perspective, I agree. But what about the social perspective? Why should we expect the human social structures in alien races?

    If an alien has offspring, why should they be called "children?" Or why should it be necessary that an alien has a "wife?" (or just one?)


    brian

  11. #86
    Man of Ways and Means kennychaffin's Avatar
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    Write your story, I'll read it, and let you know.

  12. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by kennychaffin View Post
    Write your story, I'll read it, and let you know.
    I don't think I've got the "stuff" to write. But I do have ideas, and some sci-fi has really inspired me to think higher. (This forum has also been a great discussion area, too!)

    One sci-fi TV series that I really liked, and still do, is the "Tripods" series (originally the "White Mountains" or "City of Lead and Gold"). It's such a shame they didn't do the last part of the trilogy..!


    brian

  13. #88
    I like SF. SF is cool. Steven L Jordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
    From a physiological perspective, I agree. But what about the social perspective? Why should we expect the human social structures in alien races?
    Like so many other things, writers take these conventions from familiar sources, in this case, terrestrial family/support groups. I've said before that lower survival pressures might create very different social groups, or no social groups at all, if there is no need for support/cooperation for survival.

    Bearing offspring that are essentially fully adult and prepared to fend for themselves at birth would also negate the need for support/cooperation/protection; but on Earth, only the simplest life forms (think: bacteria) are capable of producing fully functional, fully independent offspring.

    Some believe that significant survival pressure is required to evolve higher life forms. I'm not sure about that, but such pressure does tend to encourage social/family cooperative groups... on Earth. Create an alien race that is capable of independently handling their survival pressures, and you've got a race that may have no social/family groups.

    Of course, if such groups are intelligent enough, they may find other reasons to group, such as for entertainment, intellectual stimulation, or exercise...

  14. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by psikeyhackr View Post
    The problem is so many people think like that. I had a history teacher in high school who I would swear was looking forward to a war with China.

    The thing is we do need a different attitude toward science and science education. Too often the only reason some research gets financed is because they think it will be a useful weapon.

    psik
    it seems to be the kind of species we are. even if we do reach the stars as portrayed in sci-fi, colonies will gain independence, and we will continue our habits in space. there is no real evidence to suggest otherwise other than vague statements like o we will evolve into space teletubbies and live in harmony forever.

    meanwhile there is thousands of years of history and even the history of space exploration to suggest that we will continue our militaristic ways.

    wars in space will enhance our technology unlike anything

  15. #90
    Registered User gainespost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by warrior6 View Post
    it seems to be the kind of species we are.
    Yeah, for the most part. But not all people are warlike :-)

    Some kids are able to keep from punching each other when they are mad. Some are not mature enough / don't have enough self-control. Both are human.

    If we ever do make it off of Earth in a more permanent fashion, both types of humans will go. There will always be the little spoiled brats playing power games and starting fights because taking from others is easier than earning your own stuff, and there will always be the "adults" there to clean up those kids' messes. Just like here on Earth.

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