Gay/Lesbian POV

**chinookpilot77** · July 30th, 2012, 10:21 PM

This is my first post here on this forum, and I'm sorry that it is such a polarizing topic. I have been struggling to write a dark/high fantasy novel for years now, (a decade?) and two of the supporting characters in my recent draft are going to be gay. I want to represent them fairly, but I realize my own shortcomings in understanding that dynamic, since I'm a straight dude, and honestly dont think I've ever had a single conversation with a gay man...not that I'm a homophobe, they just dont tend to be in my circles, or at least not openly...

I am foreseeing these two characters to be shape changers, the fox or wolf will be their primary form, kind of druid like abilities, I need to gather some data so I can accurately represent that dynamic between the two of them...

These will be support characters, I dont need to know the in's and out's (no pun) of love making, but I do need to delve into the inner workings of what two guys feel when they love one another...They've known eachother since birth, were friends growing up, then something changed...that kinda thing...is there guilt? Is one more "feminine" than the other? they will be fighting side by side in many battles...what is going on in their heads? that kind of thing

I have no idea where to begin writing this, but I do think it would be an interesting dynamic to explore. If any of you kind folks could point me in the right direction, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks again,
Chinook

**tmso** · July 30th, 2012, 11:07 PM

Methinks, you are over-thinking it.

Think: two characters in love. Find out who they are (in your head), and then why they love each other, and how that impacts the overall story. Their sex/gender matters little, imho. (Unless their relationship has some plot or plot-twist significance.)

Now, to write it correctly so that you are not patronizing or mis-representing a gay couple, maybe you just need to "inhabit" your characters as you write. You know, what would you (in the guise of your character) say/do to your lover in whatever particular circumstance on hand?

Did that make sense?

Just some ideas. I'm a straight-dudette, so I probably have it all wrong, too.

**Laer Carroll** · July 31st, 2012, 02:05 AM

I lived as a triple (?) with a Lesbian and a bisexual woman for seven years. Most of the "bent" people I met socially were pretty average in looks, manner, jobs, etc.

I go along with tmso that the first thing is to think of the people the way you would anyone else. For instance, What are their hobbies and how does this affect the story you're telling? Does their skill in tennis or shooting arrows or solving cross-words come in handy at some plot point? How do they get along with their parents, siblings? Are they cranky before their first cup of coffee/tea? Timid people who nevertheless rise to a challenge in the story?

Then only if it impacts the story consider their sexual preference. Are they having to hide it from their co-workers or family or friends? Or do they work at a job where openly gay people are common? And so on.

**Loerwyn** · July 31st, 2012, 02:19 AM

They're people. Write them as such.

There have been a lot of straight authors who've written gay characters (Mark Charan Newton, Jim C. Hines, J.A. Pitts, Ari Marmell, L.E. Modesitt, Jr., George R.R. Martin, to name just a few), and there's no reason why you can't.

Laer makes a good point, though. Sexuality will only really need to be an issue if it doesn't fit in with your world, e.g. there could be a church lead by men in funny hats that preaches homosexuality is wrong (nope, no real world allegory here, folks) and even then you'll have people of that faith who don't think it's wrong, so on and so forth.

**Cononomous** · July 31st, 2012, 02:28 AM

Originally Posted by Laer Carroll

I lived as a triple (?) with a Lesbian and a bisexual woman for seven years. Most of the "bent" people I met socially were pretty average in looks, manner, jobs, etc.

Massive generalization. I've met many gay people who are very well off, both socially, financially and physically. Gay people don't have a 'type'.

You should be looking at your target audience, first and foremost. How will a high fantasy novel about two gay people be regarded in the literary world? How many people will read it if your main protags are gay?

**Laer Carroll** · July 31st, 2012, 04:55 AM

Originally Posted by Laer Carroll

I lived as a triple (?) with a Lesbian and a bisexual woman for seven years. Most of the "bent" people I met socially were pretty average in looks, manner, jobs, etc.

Originally Posted by Cononomous

Massive generalization. I've met many gay people who are very well off, both socially, financially and physically.

Perhaps you should read a little more closely. I said MOST OF THE "BENT" PEOPLE I MET SOCIALLY ...

That is in no way a generalization. It's straight reporting of MY experience.

I could add that I met gay people of the various sexes who were "very well off, etc." And others who were somewhat hand-to-mouth. I also met a few people who were examples of the stereotypes associated with homosexuals. Lesbians who were "mannish." Gay men who were "effeminate."

For some of "types" it was a personal expression not an affectation. But some of them took on those mannerisms deliberately. As a joke. As a way of advertising their sexual preference. And in the case of a long-time friend an "up-yours" gesture to some gay-haters we encountered.

**Cononomous** · July 31st, 2012, 06:02 AM

Originally Posted by Laer Carroll

Perhaps you should read a little more closely. I said MOST OF THE "BENT" PEOPLE I MET SOCIALLY ...

That is in no way a generalization. It's straight reporting of MY experience.

I could add that I met gay people of the various sexes who were "very well off, etc." And others who were somewhat hand-to-mouth. I also met a few people who were examples of the stereotypes associated with homosexuals. Lesbians who were "mannish." Gay men who were "effeminate."

For some of "types" it was a personal expression not an affectation. But some of them took on those mannerisms deliberately. As a joke. As a way of advertising their sexual preference. And in the case of a long-time friend an "up-yours" gesture to some gay-haters we encountered.

Anyway, I still think the market for a gay protag in fantasy is going to be hard to sell. Although, it would surely be interesting...

**Loerwyn** · July 31st, 2012, 06:41 AM

Originally Posted by Cononomous

Anyway, I still think the market for a gay protag in fantasy is going to be hard to sell. Although, it would surely be interesting...

It's widening. Richard Morgan and Mark Charan Newton have seen success with it with male characters, J.A. Pitts and Jim C. Hines have seen success with gay female characters. That's four off the top of my head.

Publishers do publish gay characters/protags, but I'm sure it's sadly seen as a risky thing to do, so you'd have to be something special or be published via someone like Ace/Roc/DAW for an LGBT protat. Well, in most cases.

But still, can we not say "bent", please?

**chinookpilot77** · July 31st, 2012, 07:16 AM

Maybe I am over thinking it, but I certainly didn't want to generalize those topics. The book isn't going to be focused on the two of them, but it will add a layer of depth to the over all world I am creating by having them there as supporting characters. In most fantasy books I've read, the gay community is represented by the villians, and then usually as a deviant. I thought it might be a nice change for them to be seen in a positive light, even a heroic one.

Thanks for all the replies!

Chinook

**Cononomous** · July 31st, 2012, 07:39 AM

Originally Posted by Loerwyn

It's widening. Richard Morgan and Mark Charan Newton have seen success with it with male characters, J.A. Pitts and Jim C. Hines have seen success with gay female characters. That's four off the top of my head.

Publishers do publish gay characters/protags, but I'm sure it's sadly seen as a risky thing to do, so you'd have to be something special or be published via someone like Ace/Roc/DAW for an LGBT protat. Well, in most cases.

But still, can we not say "bent", please?

Very interesting. I wasn't aware of them.

Chinook - you're not breaking the mold by going down the path of having sub-charachters as gay/lesbian. That's been done in a lot of books - including A Song of Fire and Ice - his gay characters are tough and resilient.

**kmtolan** · July 31st, 2012, 08:42 AM

Get by the "gay" thing and write them out as characters first - their sexual orientation should follow naturally. This is no different in many respects than an author writing from an opposite sex POV.

Kerry

**Jennifer P** · July 31st, 2012, 09:29 AM

And if you are still feeling less than confident, do you have any gay friends who might be willing to beta read for you?

**Tristis** · July 31st, 2012, 10:09 AM

I'm gay, although female, so maybe not quite what you're looking for in the way of feedback, but I'm certainly willing to read if you want me to. I've read and written a lot of gay male fiction (you think YOU had stuff to figure out

)

I've read the responses here and you've got some good advice in writing the characters first (and inhabiting them) and their orientation as it comes into play.

But it's not a hair colour and your book is not being published in a fantasy world where sexuality is so unimportant as to be merely a listed feature, so if you want to connect these two with your audience, you will have to represent it, rather than toss it out there without depth, or you'll make it into the worst of tokens.

I say you need to read a bit of gay fantasy. More than one author and the good bad and ugly of it. I bet you don't want to spend hours and months on secondary characters, but give yourself at least a bit of time reading excerpts from gay fiction to see how relationship dynamics are handled. Or pick a netflix movie in the gay and lesbian category (sure, sure, you'll start getting "because you watched…" turning up when you and the guys sit down to watch some kind of sports thing, but hey. Just tell them it was for research.

)

You have a good start with the listed authors here.

Originally Posted by Cononomous

You should be looking at your target audience, first and foremost. How will a high fantasy novel about two gay people be regarded in the literary world? How many people will read it if your main protags are gay?

I know you were a little confused here, Cononomous, because you thought this was about main characters, not supporting, but I'm hoping there are fewer authors choosing to see their audience as being put out by gay characters, should they emerge from the keyboard.

It's one thing to not purposely set out to write main protag gay characters in a romance or gays against the world theme and expect that to be accepted as general fiction rather than gay fic, but I find it a little depressing that we still have authors who would purge a gay character because it might not be well regarded in the literary world.

Please don't think I'm pointing fingers. I understand that it might feel like a certain amount of pressure. It's just rather sad that the worry even exists, especially in the realm of SF and Fantasy. There is a lot of acceptance among readers that homosexuality is just part of the spectrum. You certainly see that at conventions. Maybe authors and publishers need to get a little braver.

And don't get me started on all those literary folk…the stories I could tell

**chinookpilot77** · July 31st, 2012, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by Jennifer P

And if you are still feeling less than confident, do you have any gay friends who might be willing to beta read for you?

I've been in the Army for 11 years and was a professional fire fighter prior to that. If I know any gay people, they certainly aren't out of the closet yet, and weren't even able to be until recently.

I realize GRRM's gay characters had grit, and its been quite some time since I've read them, but I seem to remember their sexuality only hinted at, whispered about, but never out in the open.

So, right, treat them like "normal" people, I got that part, that was my intent to begin with. I guess its more difficult for me because I've never met a gay person, or at least known he/she was gay. Hopefully that makes sense. I realize this is probably a foreign concept to most of you, but its certainly not unheard of in the circles I run. You know the ones, the hairy chested, extra machismo, kill-people-for-a-living kinda circles lol.