Evolution -- Science Fact or Science Fiction?

[Riothamus]

You statement is evidence that you have never read the works of Immanuel Velikovsky. How the wooly mammoth and saber tooth tiger became modern elephants and tigers are believed to be triggered from radioactive meteors crashing onto the Earth in past history. Immanuel Velikovsky's Earth In Upheaval connects changes in the woolly mammoth and saber tooth tigers to historical records of meteors and other objects crashing onto the Earth from space. Interesting how you automatically assume I'm talking about advanced civilizations from the stars visiting the Earth. Although, you may find Major Donald Keyhoe's Alien's From Space an interesting read, especially about his claims the US Navy may have discovered evidence of ancient astronauts on Earth. I would give a man with his experience more attention than Erik Von Daniken's Chariots Of The Gods.

The same Velikovsky who has been largely discredited and criticized by leading physicists such as Carl Sagan (Gods rest his soul) and far, far more than a hand full of historians? Yeah I think I'll pass. Furthermore, being a member of member of the military such as Keyhoe was does not make one a qualified scientist or historian. Certain controversies in his life make me to question his credibility.

[Seli]

You statement is evidence that you have never read the works of Immanuel Velikovsky. How the wooly mammoth and saber tooth tiger became modern elephants and tigers are believed to be triggered from radioactive meteors crashing onto the Earth in past history. Immanuel Velikovsky's Earth In Upheaval connects changes in the woolly mammoth and saber tooth tigers to historical records of meteors and other objects crashing onto the Earth from space. Interesting how you automatically assume I'm talking about advanced civilizations from the stars visiting the Earth. Although, you may find Major Donald Keyhoe's Alien's From Space an interesting read, especially about his claims the US Navy may have discovered evidence of ancient astronauts on Earth. I would give a man with his experience more attention than Erik Von Daniken's Chariots Of The Gods.

It might be worth to actually read some proper scientific or popular science works. While Velikovsky's ideas might make some interesting what-ifs and 30's style science fiction, his theories have mostly been debunked to the level of the flat earth.

[Quark Cognition]

I, myself, do not believe in either Evolution or Creation.

Evolution is a fact and Creation(ism) is a myth. If we didn't evolve and we weren't created, then that implies we were made. I find that more tenable than creation, since making things involves rearranging preexisting materials, while creation involves the generation of new material from nothing.

If we were made, then that implies a maker. This is very different from an act of creation, since making takes what already exists and rearranges it. It is unlikely we were made by an alien species, but it is far more likely than having been created by God.

I consider both the notion of humans having been created by God or made by an advanced alien race to be in the realm of fantasy. All the evidence we have gathered so far indicates we evolved from simpler organisms. A great book that explores this topic further is "Your Inner Fish" by Neil Shubin.

[Modern Day Myth]

The same Velikovsky who has been largely discredited and criticized by leading physicists such as Carl Sagan (Gods rest his soul) and far, far more than a hand full of historians? Yeah I think I'll pass. Furthermore, being a member of member of the military such as Keyhoe was does not make one a qualified scientist or historian. Certain controversies in his life make me to question his credibility.

Dr. Robert Jastrow's biggest rival was Carl Sagan. Jastrow had some opposing views to Sagan about Velikovsky. http://www.velikovsky.info/Carl_Sagan

[Modern Day Myth]

It might be worth to actually read some proper scientific or popular science works. While Velikovsky's ideas might make some interesting what-ifs and 30's style science fiction, his theories have mostly been debunked to the level of the flat earth.

That is debatable, as Dr. Jastrow has proven.

[Modern Day Myth]

The same Velikovsky who has been largely discredited and criticized by leading physicists such as Carl Sagan (Gods rest his soul) and far, far more than a hand full of historians? Yeah I think I'll pass. Furthermore, being a member of member of the military such as Keyhoe was does not make one a qualified scientist or historian. Certain controversies in his life make me to question his credibility.

I'd have more questions for Dr. Edward U. Condon on the Condon Report, as Major Keyhoe reported very sloppy work by Condon in the validity of how Project Blue Book was conducted.

[Riothamus]

That is debatable, as Dr. Jastrow has proven.

I can name more critics and supporters in the scientific community. This is an indictment of the education system that I speak to. I have hardly seen such a willingness to ignore an overwhelming amount against such things before. Furthermore one of the journals cited exists for the purpose of promoting Velikovsky's work. Also, your citing an ENTIRE WIKI devoted to promoting his ideas, one filled with weak arguments at that.I tried searching this wiki and could only find three supporters including Velikovsky himself. Need I remind you that the catastrophist view of evoultion has been broken into tiny pieces by later scientific discoveries and theorems?

[tmso]

Hi folks!

Fascinating subject, however, this thread will be moved to the General Discussion forum as this is a discussion about science (or pseudo-science) and not works of science fiction or directly related to science fiction.

Thank you for remaining civil with each other!

[Seli]

That is debatable, as Dr. Jastrow has proven.

Could you give some examples? Because going by http://www.velikovsky.info/Worlds_in_Collision the predictions, explanations, and models don't seem to describe our universe at all.
And one place where he seems to have been right (the temperature of Venus) it seems like a lucky guess. Equivalent to predicting a red Ferrari will be fast because it is red, a model that works in other universes (for some species) but not here.

[matle]

this post literally fills me with despair for humanity...

I don't think creationists have turned to the super intelligent lizard argument yet but you might want to check out Dr Who...

[mylinar]

As I said, I don't believe in evolution or creation.

I tend to agree more with Immanuel Velikovsky's theories as well as Gordon Michael Scallion's ideas of extraterrestrial interventions along the way. The more truth comes out about Earth and its' place in our galaxy, more evidence is starting to support the notion.

Here is where your postulate falls flat. Where did the extraterrestrials come from? Were they created or evolved? No matter how far back you want to go at some point there was a beginning, a first, an original. How did that arise?

I worry about the future of humanity when more people are familiar with Tarot card readings and the influence of the Moon on thier horoscope than have even a vague understanding of the laws of Thermodynamics.

[Riothamus]

Here is where your postulate falls flat. Where did the extraterrestrials come from? Were they created or evolved? No matter how far back you want to go at some point there was a beginning, a first, an original. How did that arise?

I worry about the future of humanity when more people are familiar with Tarot card readings and the influence of the Moon on thier horoscope than have even a vague understanding of the laws of Thermodynamics.

First of all good point. The idea would seem to assume a constant rate of intervention by alien races among all sapient species, meaning that you would need an infinite number of alien species to continue the cycle which is insane at best. These alien races would need to have come from somewhere. It does seem odd to me how few people understand thermodynamics.

Second of all, do not mock the grand arts mylinar. The fact that you dismiss such things with a wave of a hand proves to me you have not studied. I'll have you know my father is a psychological counselor, an astrologer, and a tarot reader. A man who routinely tells people it's their own damn fault for screwing up their lives. One's stars can only influence one's life so much.

Also, evidence seems to suggest that dinosaurs are more related to modern avians rather than reptiles.

[Chuffalump]

Can anyone prove that intelligence would actually BE a survival advantage for dinosaurs? Insects are an incredibly successful life form but none of them have ever invented the hand axe or crop rotation. Intelligence is only one survival strategy, not even necessarily the best.

[kged]

This thread is horrifying.

[Chuffalump]

Only if you take it to heart.