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Thread: Reverend Stover

  1. #16
    The Doctor... Sammie's Avatar
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    Umm - i don't have a credit card!! They let you order on line with a debit card. (Basically, i give them the details of the card i jam in wallbanks, and would guarantee cheques with - if i ever wrote cheques )

  2. #17
    Uh, Moderator
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    Irritatingly, this means it is also a very SLIGHTLY different size from all the other books on your shelves............
    It's such a pain ordering books from the US though.

  3. #18
    The Good Solaar's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Sammie
    Umm - i don't have a credit card!! They let you order on line with a debit card. (Basically, i give them the details of the card i jam in wallbanks, and would guarantee cheques with - if i ever wrote cheques )
    You know what? I didn't know that! Hey, I could order from Amazon!

    If I hadn't already ordered it...

    Solaar
    says if the store don't get it, Amazon will get my custom!

  4. #19
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    Eventine I got my Stover books from a small Brisbane bookstore. Don't know if you have any good bookstores in Wollongong but i'm sure there must be atleast one independant store in Sydney that would take a phone order and mail it to you. If not, I could give you the name of the place in Brisbane.

    Doh just noticed you already have the first one. Oh well.

  5. #20
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    I bought them both at once Cal - just to save the trouble. Actually, they were pretty cheap and the postage was reasonable as well. One was $15, the other $18, and postage was around 6 bucks. I don't often have to order books though - my local Collins has a pretty decent range.

  6. #21
    \m/ BEER \m/ Moderator Rob B's Avatar
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    Can you give me a Halleluyah!

    I didn't get the sense Mr. Stover was preachy. Sure he presented his views very strongly, but to me, that is a whole lot different than preachy.

    I don't understand how a writer can "make" a reader into anything unless you're talking about Goodkind making those who read his books into stark raving lunatics for wasting time on the books, but I digress...

    I will agree, Mr. Stover is not subtle, he is over-the-top in your face, but he does it extremely well.

  7. #22
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    Sorry it's taken me so long to respond...I have a couple of things to say. First, I would recomend that everybody read the interview included in the back of the paperback version of the book. He makes it pretty clear how he feels about justice, morality, etc...As for his "preachiness" there is a running theme throughout the book--What's just for one my might be a travesty for another; There is really no way to decern what is ultimately and absolutely right. Sounds pretty postmodern to me. As I said before, I have no problem with him expressing his viewpoint--more power to him--my problem lies in the fact that as I read he slaps me in the face with it. The trusty old adage most profs use in fiction writing workshops is show don't tell. I'll grant he does a very adequate job in showing his particular worldview but Caine's overabundance philosophical monologues get very irratating. One last thing--I stated that it seemed to be his intention to convert. (Nihlism--believe in nothing...Satanism--"Do as thou Wilt") Several people disagreed with this. But consider this...why would he go through such effort to make his opinions known if it wasn't to "convince". Anyone who writes with such an infusion of ideas is trying to convince people. Why? Because he thinks he's right.
    Last edited by orty; October 31st, 2002 at 09:44 PM.

  8. #23
    The Doctor... Sammie's Avatar
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    Geez, man!

    Originally posted by orty
    First, I would recomend that everybody read the interview included in the back of the paperback version of the book. He makes it pretty clear how he feels about justice, morality, etc...
    Why let the author-interview affect your opinion of the story?? Plenty of author's have totally boring interviews in the cover; this doesn't make me automatically perceive the story as boring! OR...a ''profile'' that says the author grows cacti doesn't necessarily mean the book is going to secretly try and brainwash me into keeping cacti myself!

    As for his "preachiness" there is a running theme throughout the book--What's just for one my might be a travesty for another;
    So you're saying he shows the motivations of both sides, rather than only telling you how ''the good guys'' feel? Regardless of whether you get more enjoyment from a story with 'black and white' or 'grey' characters, the fact is that 'grey' characters ARE more real!! In any major war in our history, both sides are did what they felt was right!

    There is really no way to decern what is ultimately and absolutely right. Sounds pretty postmodern to me.
    No-one's defined 'post modern' for me (), but it sounds like fact to me!

    I stated that it seemed to be his intention to convert. (Nihlism--believe in nothing...Satanism--"Do as thou Wilt") Several people disagreed with this. But consider this...why would he go through such effort to make his opinions known if it wasn't to "convince". Anyone who writes with such an infusion of ideas is trying to convince people. Why? Because he thinks he's right.
    Again, everyone thinks they're right in their own opinions! (Well...except perhaps a few of guys upstairs in the anxiety clinic ). I don't think Stover goes over the top trying to "convince" us that he's right - he shows as a optional philosophy. And why not? Isn't the opuurtunity to show others your ideas, and allow them to decide their own view on the subject, part of what Freedom of Speech (and Democracy!) are about?! And hey - IM(obviously very)HO - he's writing a great story first, and showing us his thoughts secondly (or in the process, if you prefer) - so I, for one, am happy.

  9. #24
    High Priest of Cainism Shehzad's Avatar
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    As Sammie said, there are 2 sides to every conflict, and as much as you believe that you are right, and as much as you want to think that the war you're fighting is just and noble and for good, its not that way. The other side is fighting the same war for the same causes and may be just as justified.

  10. #25
    Cadfael
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    Originally posted by Shehzad
    As Sammie said, there are 2 sides to every conflict, and as much as you believe that you are right, and as much as you want to think that the war you're fighting is just and noble and for good, its not that way. The other side is fighting the same war for the same causes and may be just as justified.
    Actually.. I think orty made that particular point clear.. he/she?? has stated that all comments are 'just opinion'...

    I have never read Stover.. so I withhold comment on that, but I have read Hubbard.. and he was so blatant with his 'preaching' that I refuse point blank to ever read another book of his... so I do understand what orty is saying.

    But I am talking about my perception of Hubbard... maybe if I had been ignorant of his religion at the time of reading.. I may not have picked up on the religious 'vehicle'. Maybe this could be the same with Stover?

  11. #26
    The Doctor... Sammie's Avatar
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    possibly - after all, i read the first book before reading anything else about/by him....BUT - i honestly don't think the book preaches - he just doesn't make asecret of his opinions. Not the same thing, imo.

  12. #27
    Wayward Webmaster Waylander's Avatar
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    Cad I know what you mean about Hubbard I read Battlefield Earth and Thought Good Yarn then I tried "Invasion/Invader?? Earth" and Spotted the "message" straight away, But I did read all 10 just to see if it was going to Improve any, It remained Dire all the way through.

  13. #28
    High Priest of Cainism Shehzad's Avatar
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    At least in Heroes Die there are two radically different points of view shown. If Stover had chosen to write the book from Ma'ElKoth's point of view, Caine could SO EASILY have been the antagonist. Perhaps a bit more difficult, but still achievable, would have been to write it from Berne's point of view. All characters there weere doing things for self-interest and self-preservation, and perhaps all had an element of altruism (some less than others). Ma'ElKoth had a "big plan" in mind as one of his drives. Stover makes the point that THESE are the very drives and motivations that actually fuel the real world.

    In Blade of Tyshalle, we see the fall-out, both positive and negative of Caine's actions. We understand why people would hate Caine for what he's done, for although he achieves

    *MINOR SPOILER*

    a personal triumph

    *END MINOR SPOILER*

    for others, for example bystanders, they lose something dear and precious to them and they seek revenge. As an example to those who have read Magician, when Pug calls down the elements in the arena, he MUST have killed some bystanders as well. What would be the perspective of someone who lost his whole family in the Arena. Surely he weould see Pug as evil and characterize him and track him down as such. By doing that, one does not become a post-odernist or nihilist; that is merely reflective of REAL LIFE.

  14. #29
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    Sammie--As for the interview in the back of the book I'm not talking about the same summary type information put on the backs of almost all paperbacks. I'm talking about 12 page long interview. Perhaps you knew that but I wasn't sure. As for allowing it to affect my reading of the book one hardly needs to read the interview to understand his the theme of the book.

    Also, free speach is a wonderful thing. I'm hardly saying he shouldn't be allowed to say what he wants. He should. I'm taking about his craft. I just couldn't get past the fact that he was being so overt.

    Ensuite, Gray characters are GREAT! G.R.R. Martin does wonderful gray charcters. I was talking about his philosophic approach to life--not an aversion to gray characters. Post Modernism is only a "fact" if there is no absolute right and wrong.

  15. #30
    High Priest of Cainism Shehzad's Avatar
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    Post Modernism is only a "fact" if there is no absolute right and wrong.
    And is there?

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