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  1. #1
    Registered User Milena's Avatar
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    Unhappy Can't seem to find.. Maybe you can recommend

    A good space opera.. or any good recent SF books without feministic propaganda..
    I'm tired of female main characters, all mighty women engineers, commanders, space leaders..
    Something real, please.. no political agenda. And, I have read all Golden age SF, greatly enjoyed most of it. But past 1980's I can't seem to find anything but pure fiction.. without science lol.

    Thanks,
    Milena

    P.S. Yeah, English isn't my first language, but I read all SF's books on its original language
    Last edited by Milena; February 9th, 2013 at 02:15 AM.

  2. #2
    Registered User Milena's Avatar
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    Yeah. That's what I thought

  3. #3
    Registered User Loerwyn's Avatar
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    Well, for a start, having no replies in 12 hours is pretty common for this site. We have members from all over the world, mostly the UK and US, but also the EU, and on top of this activity will vary. We are currently in a fairly quiet period, and as such replies may be longer in coming.

    Secondly, "feministic propaganda"? It's unclear what you mean by that. Are you on about books that don't push feminism? Well, there's many that don't exist as feminist literature, but may contain feminist themes or even just female-positive roles. And, really, the simple act of putting women in positions of power (military commanders, successful traders) based on their talent rather than their identified gender would be seen by some as being feminist. Or, really, equal opportunities. But discussing the virtues of feminism in its various waves and forms is not something we're here to do. But would you class Elizabeth Moon's Vatta's War as feminist? Kylara Vatta is a competent trader, a great captain and also rather good at combat. Her cousin, Stella, proves herself to be an able business woman. There are many other positive, competent and well-written female characters in that series.

    But you want sci-fi without political agendas (which is not the same as being feminist-friendly) - and thus I assume social agendas too, then you're really kind of stuck. A lot of the classics discuss ethical issues in terms of medicine, social views and behaviour, political systems and so on. Yevgeny Zamyatin's We, Daniel Keyes' Flowers for Algernon and Joe Haldeman's The Forever War all discussed topics whilst being science-fiction novels. You have authors like Heinlein, McCaffrey and LeGuin (I can't believe I put Heinlein in with them) who all - at some point - delve into sexual (both sexuality and gender) politics. There are then authors like Orson Scott Card who add their own views (and in his case? I won't say because it gets me absolutely furious) as undercurrents into the majority of their novels.

    So, really, you need to be more specific. Do you want books completely devoid of any commentary of any kind? You're massively restricting what you'll be able to read, and if you're sick of women in equal roles (i.e. as commanders, soldiers, technicians, etc.) then you're limiting yourself even further. Why? Because science-fiction - hard or otherwise - has always attracted those who have thought outside of the boxes, or acted as such in their own lives.

    And it would also be appreciated if you were more patient when expecting replies, and if you could use less inflammatory language in your posts. Less of the "feministic propaganda" would be much appreciated.
    Last edited by Loerwyn; February 9th, 2013 at 04:54 PM.

  4. #4
    Live Long & Suffer psikeyhackr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milena View Post
    A good space opera.. or any good recent SF books without feministic propaganda..
    I saw this earlier and couldn't decide whether or not to mention the Vorkosigan series because of Cordelia as a leading character in the first two books. I have no idea how you would react. It's not ridiculously over the top like Honor Harrington.

    psik

  5. #5
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    Space Opera is alive and well. You might try A Fire Upon the Deep, which has a balance of male and female characters but no particular feminist axe to grind. Iain M. Banks and Peter Hamilton are noted practitioners of the genre, again many strong male and female characters but they don't really have a strong feminist bent, at least not overtly.

  6. #6
    I didnt respond to the thread because I have no idea what is bothering you about the sci-fi you have read. I dont think I have read much of anything with a feminist agenda. Outdated gender roles, sure, of course. But no feminist agenda books, at least not that I'm aware of. So, having no idea what is actually bothering you, its hard to make recommendations.

  7. #7
    \m/ BEER \m/ Moderator Rob B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milena View Post
    A good space opera..
    I'm guessing you didn't scroll too far down on the first page of threads here in the SF forum:
    Best Space Opera

    This thread might give you some good suggestions:
    Epic SF and Space Opera: Here's my giant list, what's missing?

  8. #8
    Registered User Milena's Avatar
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    Thanks for the replies. Didn't find my answers yet though. Will post replies and elaborate.

  9. #9
    Registered User Milena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rickintx View Post
    Space Opera is alive and well. You might try A Fire Upon the Deep, which has a balance of male and female characters but no particular feminist axe to grind. Iain M. Banks and Peter Hamilton are noted practitioners of the genre, again many strong male and female characters but they don't really have a strong feminist bent, at least not overtly.
    I decided to give Vinge's "Fire Upon the Deep" a try. And was bitterly disappointed. This is not Space Opera, it is Space Soap Opera.

    I agree on Banks easpecially early ones..
    Last edited by Milena; February 9th, 2013 at 09:57 PM.

  10. #10
    Registered User Milena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob B View Post
    I'm guessing you didn't scroll too far down on the first page of threads here in the SF forum:
    Best Space Opera

    This thread might give you some good suggestions:
    Epic SF and Space Opera: Here's my giant list, what's missing?
    Oh yeah I have been browsing there for sometime, researching..

  11. #11
    Registered User Milena's Avatar
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    Here is what I am referring to as “feminist propaganda”, in numerous modern SF books I have read (or started to read) it’s usually the woman who is the “boss”, the bravest one, e.g. the superlative while the male characters are usually the lesser dominant character, the jerk, or the stupid. There always seems to be this underlying theme to elevate the woman’s role beyond that of the man. Speaking of V.V Fire upon Deep mentioned above, the character Pham Nuwen who comes from the past (who also happens to have light colored skin, considered something prehistoric) is introduced as a barbarian. Here is another good example where an old SF gets butchered, I copied this directly from http://www.austinchronicle.com/postm...-01-15/436558/ and here is the text directly. Apparently a TV series is based on this.


    “Battlestar Galactica has been removed from storage, and, zap me with a laser pistol, it has been gussied up as feminist propaganda. A writer to the Chronicle plugs the show as the best on television [“Postmarks,” Jan. 12]. It’s the best feminist propaganda, I’ll grant you that.
    You can’t fault women for wanting at least one woman to best a man in a science-fiction adventure, but the re-creators of Battlestar Galactica have used the feminist template to such an extent that the male element has been emasculated. Take Commander Adama, who appeared initially as a strong male character. By the end of the pilot movie (aired in 2005), he apologized to the newly installed female president, the former secretary of education, for not seeing the wisdom of her orders. As for the president being a woman, who has a problem with that? But why does she have to have breast cancer? By handicapping her that way, she emasculates the commander even more.
    Starbuck, the best fighter pilot in the fleet, is now a woman. No, he didn’t have a sex change. The brassy, cigar-chomping Starbuck is the feminist ideal: She can do whatever a man does, and she can do it better.
    Battlestar Galactica shamelessly denigrates men. Guess who is to blame for the near total destruction of humanity. It’s a computer genius, a man, who has an uncontrollable sex drive. For two years he had sex with a female spy, a humanized Cylon, who used him to gain access to the defense mainframe of the soon-to-be-destroyed colonies. The feminists must be gloating over this guy, who fleshes out their propaganda model of male behavior.
    Oh, I almost forgot. The colonel, the man second in military command, is a drunk.”



    In golden age SF (Hamilton, Sheckley, Azimov etc.) there isn’t this competition of gender, there are indeed strong male characters, but they aren’t belittling women. Gender isn’t considered relevant for the story at all, but rather just a good story and occasionally some novel scientific ideas with less political B.S.

    For example, an outstanding SF writer is Stanislaw Lem, author of: Solaris, Invincible, Memoirs of Space Traveler, etc. rarely delves in anything political and focuses just on good science fiction. Lem was entirely isolated when he wrote his books and cut off from the rest of the SF world, he was certainly “outside of the box”. I read many of his books in Russian first, as well as English. I choose not to read most modern stories simply because it’s just not good material (scientifically or story itself) and loaded with propaganda.

    Yes, I am a woman and I never found anything offensive about old SF novels.
    Again, I ask is there any modern SF that is simply good SF and not propaganda?

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Milena View Post
    I decided to give Vinge's "Fire Upon the Deep" a try. And was bitterly disappointed. This is not Space Opera, it is Space Soap Opera.

    I agree on Banks easpecially early ones..

    I think maybe you want hard sci-fi, or at least sci-fi with somewhat more logic than Vinge's zones. How about something like House of Suns by Reynolds?

    If I'm right, you'll need to scratch Hamilton of the list...

  13. #13
    Administrator Administrator Hobbit's Avatar
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    This is not Space Opera, it is Space Soap Opera.
    There is an argument that they are the same thing... which is where the term came from (at least according to one version.)

    Going to think more on this one. Not sure many of the modern authors are what you want, all the ones I can currently think of do the opposite of what you seem to want (which is why you were asking, I guess...)

    How about Red Mars by Kim Stanley Robinson? More science, although much is sociological. There are female characters, although it is more team-like. Hmm.
    Mark

  14. #14
    Untroubled Gryphon elvraie's Avatar
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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by Milena View Post
    A good space opera.. or any good recent SF books without feministic propaganda..
    I'm tired of female main characters, all mighty women engineers, commanders, space leaders..
    Something real, please.. no political agenda. And, I have read all Golden age SF, greatly enjoyed most of it. But past 1980's I can't seem to find anything but pure fiction.. without science lol.

    Thanks,
    Milena

    P.S. Yeah, English isn't my first language, but I read all SF's books on its original language
    Well, all last week, I was rather confronted to the opposite, Milena... I read three books by two french male authors (I'm French). One was from the 60's and the others, the 70's. I got bored with the third one. There was a cruel absence of female protagonists, apart from those who were just there to be just pretty (Be Pretty and Shut up!) or a somewhat clunky love interest. All featured spaceship crews. Not a single female, let alone commanding or in a strategic place. So unnatural. Maybe, you don't like those 'Kick ass', big mouth girls? I don't, either. Captain Janeway in StarTrek Voyager is a good female protagonist, calm and firm, without being masculine. Tanith lee writes good females protagonists, sometimes very strong and a bit 'kick ass' or sometimes, more meek. The Silver Metal Lover, for example, features a girl which is guided by her heart but she has her own weaknesses.
    I hope I helped a bit...
    Elvraie

  15. #15
    Ataraxic Moderator KatG's Avatar
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    In golden age SF (Hamilton, Sheckley, Azimov etc.) there isn’t this competition of gender, there are indeed strong male characters, but they aren’t belittling women. Gender isn’t considered relevant for the story at all, but rather just a good story and occasionally some novel scientific ideas with less political B.S.
    That's an interesting view of the history of SF, but I'd say it's largely inaccurate. Women were frequently belittled in old age SF. But a lot of the time, they were simply absent or incidental. Sometimes they were heroic, so it's a bit of a toss up.

    In modern SF, they are less absent and less 1950's housewives. But they are not as often the protagonists of stories as men are and certainly not the "boss," so I'm not sure what it is that you are reading. You might like Neal Stephenson, John C. Wright, David Drake, John Ringo, Eric Flint, Ian Douglas, and William R. Forstchen. I don't know if the females will be subservient enough, but they might work for you. Flint's stuff is mostly alt history, but the others might be more in the space opera direction.

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