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  1. #61
    dw4rf thrinidir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RimWorlder View Post
    To me, space opera is 'action adventure' with blasters substituted for cutlasses or six guns, space ships substituted for ships of the line or horses - simple action adventure in a loosely agreed upon "science fictional" setting.

    Just because a work is dated does not automatically place it in the space opera category.
    Your perception of space opera is just different from ours i guess...dated works have nothing to do with it.

  2. #62
    Registered User Anders's Avatar
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    I've always loved certain sub-genres of Science Fiction. For whatever reason, my brain/background/experiences/etc, my taste tells me that there are also several genres within Science Fiction I have no or at least a very limited interest in. Like I've mentioned before, my favorite kind of Science Fiction happens in space (Star Wars, B5, Dune, Firefly, Galactica, Trek, Stargate, Hitchhikers, Dr. Who). Not so much alien inventions of earth (like War Of The Worlds, Independence Day), nor nearly realistic near future explorations of our solar system (2001), nor unexplainable/paranormal mysteries in present time (like the X-Files), certainly not vampires (Buffy), or monsters (Frankenstein), or vampires (Dracula), and whatever other sub-genres doesn't fit the space genre. If a work in any genre is fantastic, I'll probably like it anyway, but that's not the point.

    More often than not, I've seen all these dramas I like, presented as Space Opera, and I've found no other combining name/genre. That's how I found this thread (by searching for Space Opera on Google), and that's why I combined the list of the suggestions people have made in this thread. A lot of the novels suggested does indeed seem to fit what I'm looking for, or at least close enough, while one or two clearly are not. It would be a shame then, if Space Opera is only used for stories with big guns, big heroes, and tales too incredible to swallow. Perhaps then, there is another name for the genre I'm looking for?
    Last edited by Anders; January 14th, 2008 at 03:18 PM.

  3. #63
    Old Fogey Fan RimWorlder's Avatar
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    Anders,

    yes, at the current time it most definately is different; lacking the definition that everyone else is working off of kind of guarantees that, doesn't it.

    I'm not attacking a definition I haven's seen. I'm merely making the observation that "back in the day" space opera was identified as a specific sub-genre that was mostly 'blood-and-thunder' action adventure. And many of the works in the list were not placed in that category when they were originally published.

    Definitions can certainly change with time (as they apparently have). Dune, for example, was hailed as the first "ecological" science fiction novel ever (with an interesting pseudo-feudal society thrown in) - not as space opera; the two novelettes that were cobbled together to create the novel were originally published in Astounding Stories - most definately NOT the home of space opera science fiction at the time. (In fact, Campbell railed against that type of SF when describing the kind of fiction he would be publishing, and Bova followed suit when he took over.)


    If someone could find an active link to the definition, it would be appreciated.
    Last edited by RimWorlder; January 14th, 2008 at 08:28 AM.

  4. #64
    Old Fogey Fan RimWorlder's Avatar
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    Anders,

    I've copied your list (sorry - I didn't see your disclaimer the first time I read the list) and will note the novels I'm familiar with and the ways they were categorized when either - originally published or during the pre-internet era when I first read them:

    E. E. Smith's Lensman definately space opera
    George R. Stewart's Earth Abides nc
    Ray Bradbury's Martian Chronicles definately NOT space opera
    A. E. van Vogt's The Voyage of The Space Beagle Space opera
    Isaac Asimov's Foundation Series definately not: most blurbs/discussion was of the "new (potential) science of psychohistory"
    Clifford Simak's City dystopian, not opera
    Arthur C. Clarke's Childhood's End hailed as "one of the most important novels of our time" not space opera
    Robert A. Heinlein's Tunnel in the Sky SF juvenile - adventure in a sense, but more frequently advertised as a morality tale. (Heinlein was NEVER identified as a writer of space operas)
    Alfred Bester's Stars My Destination These days I see where the categorization comes from, but it was not perceived in the same way back when
    James Blish's Cities in Flight again, see where it comes from these days, but these were 'character stories' set against the backdrop of the use of spindizzies; again, Campbell-Astounding based so, according to him, its not space opera...
    Daniel Keyes' Flowers for Algernon ?? how did this get in here? lol
    Walter M. Miller's Canticle for Leibowitz - great novel, post apocolyptic send-up of then current issues. Not space opera
    Harry Harrison's Deathworld series definately space opera. (Hey, Campbell was allowed to break his own rules...) If you want a seminal definition of S.O. along with Harrison's perfect sense of humor, read Bill, The Galactic Hero or Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers.
    Phillip K. Dick's Man in the High Castle not
    Jack Vance's The Demon Prince series probably
    Frank Herbert's Dune most definately not
    Arthur C. Clarke's 2001: A Space Odyssey - based on the short The Sentinel. Not space opera
    Ursula K. Le Guin's Left Hand of Darkness Not
    Anne McCaffrey's The Ship series can't say, never got 'into' Anne
    Poul Anderson's Tau Zero probably. Better example of Anderson's space opera would be The High Crusade
    Larry Niven's Ringworld HARD SF - not opera. HARD SF is the 'answer' to space opera. We can't have space pirates because its impossible to match velocities if the other guy doesn't want to cooperate, and besides, we'll fry them with our message laser...
    Ben Bova's The Exiles Trilogy maybe
    Frederik Pohl's Heechee stories not
    Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle's The Mote in God's Eye space opera
    Piers Anthony's Cluster read Omnivore, read Orn, can't handle any more...
    Douglas Adams' The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy comedic send up of the sub-genre
    David Brin's The Uplift stories a looser version of hard sf, but still harder than space opera
    Joan Vinge's The Snow Queen Cycle ?
    C. J. Cherryh's Downbelow Station I think CJ would object
    M. K. Wren's The Phoenix Legacy ?
    Jack Chalker's Four Lords of the Diamond most definately and a better example would be the Well World series. I miss Jack.
    Anne McCaffrey's The Crystal Singer series haven't read
    Piers Anthony's Bio of a Space Tyrant
    Orson Scott Card's Ender Saga personal issue here - can't and won't read him
    Arthur C. Clarke's Songs of Distant Earth not
    Celia S. Friedman's The Braxi/Azea duology ?
    Iain M. Banks' Culture series ?
    W. Michael Gear's Way Of Spider series ?
    Dan Simmons' Hyperion Cantos "Modern Space Opera", to distinguish it from the Doc Smith type
    Greg Bear's Queen Of Angels series ?
    S. M. Stirling and David Drake's The General Like both of them well enough, haven't read them together
    Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars series - he's claim Hard SF
    Vernor Vinge's A Fire Upon The Deep/A Deepness in the Sky definately "modern" space opera
    David Weber's Honor Harrintgon series self-proclaimed carrier of the space opera flame
    Timothy Zahn's Conquerors trilogy ?
    C. J. Cherryh's Foreigner ?
    Simon R. Green's Deathstalker series ?
    Catherine Asaro's Saga of the Skolian Empire ?
    Peter F. Hamilton's The Night's Dawn Trilogy ?
    David Weber's Heirs Of Empire series yes
    Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan Saga ?

    after this you're getting into territory I'm not familiar with - and, lol, notice the dates. I'll admit I'm pretty stuck in everything 80s and earlier - but every time I pick something 'new' up at the store, it just doesn't do it for me these days.

  5. #65
    dw4rf thrinidir's Avatar
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    wikipedia defines space opera quite adequately as i see it:
    Space opera is a subgenre of speculative fiction or science fiction that emphasizes romantic adventure, and larger-than-life characters often set against vast exotic futuristic settings with remotely plausible technology such as time travel and interstellar travel, complex alien civilizations and fictional depictions of the human future.

  6. #66
    Registered User Anders's Avatar
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    That sounds like a logical definition to me, although I'm a bit confused as it doesn't include any mention of space travel.

    I've already agreed that some of the novels on the list doesn't quite fit the genre, but if we follow the definition above I think you're being a bit strict Rimworlder. Dune seems to fit the definition quite well to me. You also said that the "Foundation Trilogy is political/sociological SF", but isn't that something you could say about stories from all various types of SF? How then do you differentiate between the different types of SF (f.ex. monster vs space)?
    Last edited by Anders; January 15th, 2008 at 01:54 AM.

  7. #67
    Registered User Anders's Avatar
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    If Space Opera simply meant cardboard characters, trivial love stories, and old style western plots, it might be lightly entertaining, but it would not be what I'm looking for. Since my background in this is mainly from TV and movies, I'll use Babylon 5 as an example of a clever tale, full of twists, changing characters, both political and philosophical in its core.

    I've seen some people use terms such as Space Fiction and Space Adventure as a way to redefine/define the genre, but obviously if it becomes too broad, then 2001 and Star Wars would end up standing side by side, and I'm not sure that would make much sense.

    "It takes a certain ambition to try to get your editorial arms around space opera because it seems that everyone has their own definition of it. It's as if the definition of it is as subjective a thing as success or beauty."

    http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/004305.html

    "Space opera used to be a pejorative locution designating not a subgenre or mode at all, but the worst form of formulaic hackwork: really bad SF.

    […]

    Many readers and writers and nearly all media fans who entered sf after 1975 have never understood the origin of space opera as a pejorative and some may be surprised to learn of it. Thus the term space opera reentered the serious discourse on contemporary SF in the 1980s with a completely altered meaning: henceforth, space opera meant, and still generally means, colorful, dramatic, large scale science fiction adventure, competently and sometimes beautifully written, usually focussed on a sympathetic, heroic central character, and plot action [this bit is what separates it from other literary postmodernisms] and usually set in the relatively distant future and in space or on other worlds, characteristically optimistic in tone."

    http://vectoreditors.wordpress.com/2...s-space-opera/
    Last edited by Anders; January 17th, 2008 at 05:14 AM.

  8. #68
    enslaved to my writing Abby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anders View Post
    henceforth, space opera meant, and still generally means, colorful, dramatic, large scale science fiction adventure, competently and sometimes beautifully written, usually focussed on a sympathetic, heroic central character, and plot action [this bit is what separates it from other literary postmodernisms] and usually set in the relatively distant future and in space or on other worlds, characteristically optimistic in tone.
    I like that definition. If everyone defined space opera that way, I wouldn't be embarrassed to apply the label to my own works.

  9. #69
    Ian M. Banks - Pretty much all his books, though the culture ones are best.

    Stephen Donaldson - Gap series.

    C.S. Friedman - most of her sf books, especially "In conquest born".

    Dan simmons - Hyperion/endymion series.

    Chris Bunch - Not the best i have ever read but straightforward space opera.

    Larry Niven - Ringworld series. (The first two are pretty good).

    Thats the ones i can think of atm.

    I see many are recommending the nights dawn triology, but i could never get into it. I struggled through the first book hoping it would improve but i lost interest in continuing the series.

  10. #70
    Registered User Anders's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thrinidir View Post
    you took my advice preety serious didn't you? ...keep me (us) posted about how you like the books, will you? I would hate to have given you queer recommendations
    Just finished Ender's Game, and it was brilliant. Thanks to all those who suggested it.

    Just ordered Ender's Shadow and Shadow of the Hegemon. Don't know what to expect.
    Last edited by Anders; January 21st, 2008 at 03:46 PM.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Anders View Post

    My taste: I frown when things I consider too incredible or impossible are a decisive factor, and hope to avoid time travel or alternate dimensions altogether. However warp drive or similar ways of traveling fast, the force in Star Wars, telepathy in B5, and similar things are more than acceptable. I love reading about various alien cultures, but please no zombies or living dead, my preferred aliens are the kind you see in Star Trek, Star Wars and Babylon 5.

    I'll keep on looking by myself, and I'll read around this forum, but if someone has got a good advice to give me, I would be grateful.
    You might want to try the Dune series (All). That is a great space opera.
    The Deathstalker Series - Simon Green is good also.

    Some might think it is young, but the Acorna series - Anne MaCaffery might be something that would interest you.

  12. #72
    For those who want to learn more exactly what "Space Opera" is or is not, I highly recommend a recent massive anthology: The Space Opera Renaissance by David G. Hartwell (Author), Kathryn Cramer (Author)

    I am nearly finished with it, some really great stories, and the authors do a really good job of defining what "Space Opera" is now, and how this subgenre has evolved over the years...

    http://www.amazon.com/Space-Opera-Re...1556982&sr=8-1

    Introduction: *How Shlt became Shinola, Definition & Redefinition of Space Opera, by Hartwell & Cramer

    I. Redefined Writers
    "The Star Stealers" by Edmond Hamilton
    "The Prince of Space" by Jack Williamson
    "Enchantress of Venus" by Leigh Brackett
    *"The Swordsmen of Varnis" by Clive Jackson

    II. Draftees (1960s)
    ***"The Game of Rat & Dragon" by Cordwainer Smith
    "Empire Star" by Samuel R. Delany
    "Zirn Left Unguarded, the Jenjik Palace in Flames, Jon Westerly Dead" by Robert Sheckley

    III. Transitions/Redefiners (late 1970s to late 1980s)
    *"Temptation" by David Brin
    "Ranks of Bronze" by David Drake
    *"Weatherman" by Lois McMaster Bujold
    "A Gift from the Culture" by Iain M. Banks

    IV. Volunteers:Revisionaries (early 90s)
    *"Orphans of the Helix" by Dan Simmons
    "The Well Wishers" by Colin Greenland
    *"Escape Route" by Peter Hamilton
    "Ms Midshipwoman Harrington" by David Weber
    "Aurora in Four Voices" by Catherine Asaro
    **"Ring Rats" by R. Garcia y Robertson
    *"The Death of Captain Future" by Allen Steele

    V. Mixed Signals/ Mixed Categories (to the late 1990s)
    *"A Worm in the Well" by Gregory Benford
    **"The Survivor" by Donald Kingsbury
    "Fools Errand" by Sarah Zettel
    "The Shobies Story" by Ursula K. Le Guin
    "The Remoras" by Robert Reed
    "Recording Angel" by Paul McAuley
    "The Great Game" by Steven Baxter
    "Lost Sorceress of the Silent Citadel" by Michael Moorcock
    "Space Opera" by Michael Kandel

    VI. Next Wave (21st Century)
    "Grist" by Tony Daniel
    "The Movements of her Eyes" by Scott Westerfeld
    *"Spirey and the Queen" by Alastair Reynolds
    *"Bear Trap" by Charles Stross
    "Guest Law" by John C. Wright

  13. #73
    Registered User Anders's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thrinidir View Post
    I'm not an expert on space opera, but from what I've heard, you really can't go wrong with Peter F. Hamilton's The Night's Dawn Trilogy or Ian M. Banks' Culture Series. One of the last years favourites seem to be Stealing Light by Gary Gibson and/or Tobias S. Buckell's Ragamuffin (the second in the series; first was Crystal Rain). If you want classics: Isaac Asimov's Foundation Series, Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan Saga, Larry Niven's Ringworld and let's say Orson Scott Card's Ender Saga and Frank Herbert's Dune books (where upon Herbert's and Card's reputation is built on the first book of the series, the following entries are arguably of lesser quality).
    Quote Originally Posted by thrinidir View Post
    you took my advice preety serious didn't you? ...keep me (us) posted about how you like the books, will you? I would hate to have given you queer recommendations
    I'm mixing my reading up between genres (trying to read In Cold Blood this week, embarassed to say I read the first chapter a year ago, but it seems to be going at a nice pace now), but I read and finished A Warrior's Apprentice by Bujold about a month ago. I appreciated the humour in the books. It's nowhere near as silly as Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy, but when serious and even tragic events happen to the main characters, there always seem to be a funny moment just around the corner. In part it's because of Bujold's writing in general, but more specifically it seems to be because of the way she has made Miles Vorkosigan. He's not only more frail, but also more charming and has more heart than Ender Wiggin, yet he's not so easy to reach, it's as if Bujold keeps at a distance from the readers at times. I just read A Game Of Thrones from ASOIAF, and for those who know those characters, he reminds me a bit of Tyrion Lannister in his humour and in the way people relate to him.

    The plot is not as sharp as either of the other two books I mentioned, it drags on at times, and some situations feels artificially created, but the reader is always left guessing what Miles will do next. I do wish Bujold had given more time to build the other characters as well, and the plot could have been more original. However, it was a fun and pleasant read, and I can easily see myself going back and reading more Bujold/Miles novels.

  14. #74
    About David Weber's Honor series- is it completed now or is he still writing books in it?

  15. #75
    Catacomb Kid Power to the J's Avatar
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    This might ruffle a few feathers, but I really enjoyed James Somers's Soone. I've only read the first book--Heir to the King, but I thought it was really fun, even if it smelled a bit like Star Wars. But, that much being said, I'm really not the biggest sf reader, so I'm pitifully ignorant. But I'm making an effort to change, I swear!

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