July 21st, 2003, 10:21 AM
As to the concepts raised, some stories are intended to be nothing more than a sort of free-for-all game. They are fun to read and it is fun to participate in them. Other stories, however, are serious in the sense that those working on them are putting effort into crafting a work of art, a tapestry of words. Part of the fun in these cases is keeping track of the entire storyline and doing the research (or logical “imagineering” in the case of the sci-fi stories) to make the story work. The fact of the matter is, if you ever want to have a story published there will be a certain level of effort and commitment required. This same level of effort is what can be found in some of the collaborative story threads. The stories I am working on have involved quite literally hundreds of behind the scenes PMs. I imagine the other stories have muc the same going on behind the scenes. Is that a lot of work? Yes. It is fun? Yes. Are we producing some well-crafted stories? By all reports, yes we are. With this in mind I hope others can see why the authors of those stories would not appreciate someone putting a figurative foot in the middle of the sandcastle. Does this mean those authors would not welcome others? Certainly not! As long as those others are willing to write within the established framework of the storyline. If a person is not willing to write within the framework of the storyline one wonders what would be the point of posting in the thread? The collaborative stories are sort of a game. All games have rules – you cannot play checkers on a Risk board – and the polite thing to do is to ask the rules of the game before joining. The equally polite thing to do is to share those rules when someone asks - hopefully you can see by all those PMs I mentioned that there is quite a bit of sharing already going on!
I know this might sound intimidating, but just think of it as a learning experience and chance to grow in your own writing. Speaking for myself, my writing skills have grown by leaps and bounds working in, and reading, these collaborative stories!
Those are my thoughts on things.
July 21st, 2003, 11:36 AM
Ok - this is all getting out of hand - let's see if we can't clear matters up:
The issue seems to be that although everyone is happy for there to be some spontaneous free-for-all threads, there is also a wish for some more serious 'word craft' to be allowed to exist uninterferred with. The problem is this - if the site officially acknowledges that this is 'serious' work, not play, by letting you set limits on who may participate, then we are put in a dilemma - because there is a rule forbidding people from posting chunks of their own work straight into the forums. Once you exclude other members, this is effectively what you are doing. It's against the rules.
So in the eyes of the site - if any of these stories is a researched, well planned, serious writing exercise, why is it in the forums? Two possible reasons. The less favourable would be that you simply find it an easy media to work in. I'm sure everyone understands that that would not be sufficient reason for the admins to allow it. The second reason, which i choose to believe is the case, is that you wish other members to enjoy reading your work. But in this case, your stories are indistinguishable from those that members submit via the official channels. The rule is that if you wish other members to see your own work then it must be submitted via official channels.
On the other hand - those threads that are fun most definitely should be for all members. There are no legit grounds for excluding anyone.
Comments welcome - constructive criticism welcome - alternative suggestions very welcome. But please remember that this is not a democracy - in the end we are all here courtesy of the site owner - and his was the final decision in this matter.
July 21st, 2003, 12:25 PM
Then why is it on the boards?
I suggest that in future any pair with a story idea they wish to work on together completes each section in private and submits it to the site via the normal channels.
Scarlett - you clearly don't want anyone else to join in with your and Holbrook's tale - that's fair enough, except it begs the question of why you have posted it on a public forum to begin with?
Really this is very simple:
A limited author effort of any kind is a 'private' effort. We do not allow private work to be posted direct to the forums; it must be sent via the submissions link.
A story that any member may post in is a 'public' effort. These are welcomed in this forum. Any member wishing to post must respect the story so far, and any thoughts expressed in the title post. No one is required to be a 'writer', or to have researched their efforts, or to make a commitment to continue to participate.
I honestly feel this arguement is just going in circles - please don't argue the above points any further - they ARE set in stone - the forum owner has approved them and all admins involved in the discussion were in agreement with them. Ultimately, neither point is any different from the pre-existing site policies.
If anyone wishes to complain, or disagree, feel free to send a message to any of the admins. It sha'n't be discussed on the boards any further.
On the other hand if anyone has any genuine questions about this forum - feel free to ask.
July 21st, 2003, 12:54 PM
Edited for submission
What Scarlett said is true, the matter of research has been blown out of proportion, By research I mean if my character is a 1st world war soldier, I do a small search and find out a bit about what he would have looked like and his clothes. I don't use all the info, just bits to make my post sound fairly close but mainly I try and carry the story forward and put in enough for the following writer to hang there section on.
I take part, mainly for enjoyment and from the PM's I have received from many members, other people enjoy reading them. That adds to the fun, knowing someone else is enjoying what you produce and you try to produce the next bit better. Doesn't always work. But there is.
I have not desire to be elitist, I just want a framework to work in, I want to know that if the story is well established, who ever wants to join in is as committed as myself and the rest of the team working. This would add to the fun and the work.
Yes I am not comfortable with writing with people under 18, and not because I want to place content on the site that is not suitable for it.
Originally posted by Sammie
As far as writing with under 18 year olds goes....as you mentioned, Hol, we have a 'no under 13's without parental permission' thing going on. I think it best that everyone bear in mind that what they write must be suitable for anyone aged 13 up - and if you are not comfortable writing with people this age, then your content is most likely too adult to be posted anyway. .
The reason I would not feel comfortable writing or PM's a 14/15 year old about witchcraft, murder, demons, warfare etc. And as I read and ok stories for the forum I am well aware of the content that some of the younger members want to include in their stories. That they produce this material off their own bat is one thing. If through some misunderstood suggestion/post of mine causes them to produce it, then no way Sammie.
It is well known on this forum I have some knowledge of swords and weaponry. I have on more than once received PM's by younger members asking me all sorts of things.
One springs to mind. A young man wanted me to tell him how to and what would it be like to disembowel someone. My answer was it would hurt, the person would die and you would go to jail.
My reason for not wanting to write with under 18 years is that I am an adult with morals and a concern for younger people. If a younger member wanted to write with me then great, but they would be told at the outset what type of story I would not consider doing. Neither would I jump into a younger members story and "take over" or try to alter their own creative process to suit mine. I would respect them, as I would hope they would respect me.
Last edited by Holbrook; July 21st, 2003 at 01:46 PM.
July 21st, 2003, 05:17 PM
Well it would seem that things have gotten fairly heated overnight while I've been sleeping. Perhaps it would be best to all just step back, take a deep breath, and look at the facts. I think we are getting bogged down with formalities and details here, and losing sight of the big picture.
- Fact 1 - Dag has decided in favour of those who believe there should be NO EXCLUSIVE TOPICS and NO NAMES in titles.
- Fact 2 - This is how things worked for months, when the Hub originally started. And continued working like this, until we recently thought to put the author's names in the titles.
- Fact 3 - I think you'd have to agree that there were VERY few problems with this setup. Yes - there was the occasional awkward moment, but these were resolved fairly quickly, easily, and painlessly I thought.
Perhaps we should concentrate on the writing of stories and stop worrying about the "What if's". They weren't a major problem before. Why would they be, now? This subforum was created to give you the chance to do what you enjoy doing. I personally don't think it very likely that these issues of people ruining threads, OR people feeling excluded or intimidated are a serious threat.
Maybe I have greater faith than you in your fellow members, but I think they are respectful enough not to barge in and wreck anyone's ongoing project. And with this new format, I also think the very few accidental misunderstandings will be avoided as well.
July 21st, 2003, 06:45 PM
I AM too a mod!
What? Not conducive to creativity? You think my alien on the Hub could be any more absurd? Drat!
But seriously, I'm definitely anti-exclusive-ism. I think that was the right decision by Dag. After all, there are a million storyboard sites out on the net already, Dag doesn't have to reinvent every wheel here.
I understand that there are little groups of people here who bounce off each other and enjoy their peers reading the results. I haven't noticed anybody sabotaging these efforts yet. Most people on seeing that two or three people have a 'thing' going will leave them to it especially if it involves reading back pages and pages which they NEED to do so as not to spoil the story (as Holbrook mentioned). There are a few other storylines where the writers are begging for more imput where anyone can play with their writing.
I don't think the Playroom is the place for any serious collaborative efforts for copyright reasons as well as Dag's showcase policy, which we stretch pretty far already with links to our sites, bookcovers etc... by the way have you all seen mine: just kidding, not a link.
I think if there are lots of fun threads, with tricks and word limits to them (outlined in the first post of the thread), the more serious threads can continue as happily as they have. Put a note in the first post to PLEASE READ BACK so as to not spoil the storyline or PLEASE contact _______ to find out where we see this story going. Perhaps Sammie could put something under the COLLABORATIVE STORIES header to direct people to read the first post of any thread they're interested contributing to.
That is the operative word... contributing... contribute, group, create, team, fun, peers, all good words. Think happy thoughts.
July 22nd, 2003, 03:07 AM
Have added this to my first post.
Originally posted by Rocket Sheep
Perhaps Sammie could put something under the COLLABORATIVE STORIES header to direct people to read the first post of any thread they're interested contributing to.
Not sure how to put it under the forum header, if that's what you meant? Maybe one of the other mods knows how?
July 22nd, 2003, 06:51 AM
I AM too a mod!
Don't show any weakness in your modly powers! Not with two Oggs around!
Actually, if some mod is doing some rearranging, to put the above under the header, which IS what I meant... could they take me out from between the two Oggs? I've been there for ages and it is getting really stuffy.
July 22nd, 2003, 06:56 AM
You're right - it's about time someone rescued you; we wouldn't want you to melt!
Had a fiddle (not a word!!) and don't think even the combined might of the two Oggs can add lines under the forum header. One for the boss, i fear.
July 23rd, 2003, 03:26 PM
I'm the law...
Hmm, just felt the sudden urge to pop in and post a few words here. Not too often you see me post in any of the open forums I guess .
Anyway, there are actually several reasons why we're not going for the exclusive topics that some of you requested. First of all the idea behind the whole website as well as the forum is to let everybody participate. Another thing is that the forum software itself wouldn't make such a thing easy to handle either.
I was basically hoping that if people used their common sense in all this there wouldn't be any problems and if we all work together on this I'm sure this will be really positive addition to the forum.
Hope that made some sense at least .
July 24th, 2003, 06:21 AM
Okay guys, I am in the process of moving the Hub stories over to this subforum. I am just giving them a rough, off-the-top-of-my-head title in the process, so I can give them their own individual thread.
If the relevant authors would like these titles changed, please let me know, and I'll edit to show your preference. I have to admit that there's a couple I haven't read, so they might just appear with the names of some of the characters in the title. I'll fix them pronto if you let me know what you'd like to see there instead.
Also, I have enclosed the titles in ** if the story is completed.
Last edited by e-Morgana; July 24th, 2003 at 07:52 AM.
July 25th, 2003, 04:21 AM
Edited for submission
Just wondering if it would be a good idea to have am "Ideas" thread.
If some one placed up a "rough idea" for a story and asked if anyone is interested in making a start on that story. Then when the story is started posting a small link to it, so if folks want to take part in a story they don't have to plough through x number of threads to see if something catches their interest.
July 25th, 2003, 02:15 PM
July 26th, 2003, 12:10 AM
My Husband and I, wish you the best... it would seem my consort has sincere feelings for you, and is now at the altar making a sacrifice to aid your recovery.
July 27th, 2003, 03:26 AM
...add my prayers to that too...
Just wanted to say here that I remember a fine solution example in the historic "Melancholy Imp" under the heading of "Various Authors." This collaborative story was eventually posted in the story section. Originally, we started the story without any outline to the posts. Anyone could write anything and take the story somewhere. We had a separate thread where we discussed the story, which would function like PMming here.
Eventually, one person (Erebus, the sweetie) did a final edit where he tried to include and/or weed out any misdirected enthusiasms and make the story "work" out by wrapping up all the various loose ends. The last person who contributed, (Giarc) I thought was really brilliant because he made the story come together.
Wouldn't that be one model we could use to work this out - - I mean, the posting in the story section under "various authors"?
A story could exist, open to all, on its "raw form" in the playroom forum here. Also another more formalized story, based on this thread could be in the story section where particular authors would take credit for them...which could be in series, if appropriate. That way the thread here could go wherever it wanted to, and the people who were taking their craft of writing more"seriously" could be left alone to do that. A link to the related series could be in the intro/explanation at the beginning.
That way the person(s) who do the work of editing/writing expertly could select out the posts that they believe would add to story, fill in what they believe were the missing parts, correct inconsistencies, etc. - what any editor does, and more power to them!
Just a thought -