I guess I can get it started! I read this book a few months ago and raved about it here in SF forum.
How do you like it so far? I loved the setting and the idea of the golems.
The world is interesting too, in the way survellence is set up. Brin really does not like all the spy technology and cameras everywhere. He touched on this theme in his book "Earth" years ago.
I LOVED war as reality TV.
Susan
Here's my review which I uploaded to the site earlier:
<BEWARE BROKEN GLASS!>
Hang around any large gathering of Science Fiction aficionados for long enough and sooner or later someone will pipe-up and decry the current state of the genre, affirming with absolute conviction that ‘things were better in the old days’.
I’ve never really taken much notice of these people who choose to eternally wrap themselves in a safety-blanket of nostalgia, but after reading David Brin’s ‘Kiln People’ I am giving serious thought to changing my mind.
I shall not beat about the bush here: this book has all the interesting qualities of a platitudinous conversation with a drunken aunt on Christmas Day. To list all of its manifold flaws would probably chew up this site’s entire bandwidth allocation for a month, so I shall concentrate merely upon the most prominent howlers:
a) Taking into account the central themes of the book, I am completely perplexed as to how David Brin came to the conclusion that there is a whopping 600-page (UK edition) story to tell here. Perhaps his publisher pays by the word, in which case I can only congratulate the author on his ability to negotiate a writing deal that would make Gordon Gecko blush. Featuring only three (emotionally anorexic) characters of any real note, and with an environment that you could probably fit inside a reasonable sized airport departure lounge (and be left with room to spare), I really see no need for this story to exceed 200 pages. If the author had set such a limit ‘Kiln People’ might well have turned out to be an interesting and thought-provoking read. As things stand, what interesting plot there is to be found here is mired in padding, waffle and oily flab: if this book were to take a cholesterol test, they’d be calling in the cardio-resuscitation team and charging up the paddles with apprehension.
b) A future society where animate golems or ‘dittos’ function as remote sensorial proxies for their hedonistic human masters is an interesting concept, but even the most unquestioning of SF fans must agree that it is also utterly ludicrous. The thought of thousands of these creatures shambling around town, desperately trying to reach the masters so that they can achieve ‘upload’, whilst sloughing off huge chunks of flesh in the street is just plain silly.
c) This book is bewilderingly schizophrenic, lurching through multiple genres like some punch-drunk boxer who has staggered out of his corner for one fight too many. The author’s decision to turn the story into quasi-SF/noir is a particularly bad move as it appears as if he has absolutely no comprehension of what differentiates good noir from bad noir. This tale being a perfect example of the latter.
d) According to one back page review (again – UK edition) ‘the twists just keep coming’, which is certainly true, and herein lies another problem: the effectiveness of a ‘twist’ is inversely proportional to the number of times you attempt to deliver it. Throw in two or three twists and you shouldn’t have a problem, but attempt any more and you run the risk of reducing your plot to farcical levels. In ‘Kiln People’, David Brin pulls the rug from out under the reader’s feet seemingly every third chapter, and by the end I was half expecting Patrick Duffy to step out of the shower and tell me that it was all a dream. Oh but if I could be so lucky.
e) From about chapter 60 onwards this book becomes practically unreadable. Line after line of self-indulgent, pretentious diction such as ‘It is the answer to the Riddle of Pain’ or ‘now back to the ortho-moment’ spew forth at the reader like ectoplasm from the revolving head of a demonically possessed Regan MacNeil. Clearly Brin has some pressing piece of quasi-religious insight that he wishes to share with his readers, but I am in a state of absolute mystification trying to explain what it is.
f) Sitting through 600 plus pages of Albert Morris and his many dittos (who all act in precisely the same annoying jocular manner, despite major design differences which would no doubt dramatically affect each ditto’s outlook and personality) is somewhat akin to being stuck in a hellish time-loop, endlessly recycling the first day back at school after the summer holidays. I can’t decide exactly when I began to loathe his painful wisecracks and all round thickheadishness but I’m pretty sure that I was a long way toward formulating the opinion somewhere within the first chapter.
Now, if it appears as if I am in a state of foam-mouthed apoplexy here then let me take this opportunity to confirm your suspicions. This book is a clunker of earth-shattering proportions, and I am struggling in vain to recall reading anything this bad in the last five years. The sad thing is that I really wanted to like this novel. I respect David Brin for his sterling work in the highly entertaining ‘Uplift series’, but sadly ‘Kiln People’ must rank as his most forgettable creation yet. In 600 pages I sifted out little more than a couple of chapters’ worth of novel imagery, and the development work on a coherent plot and characterisation is pretty much non-existent.
One to be avoided and I sincerely hope that Brin doesn’t make a habit out of this worthless nonsense in the future.
Wow, Mug. I'm really finding it interesting so far. I should be back in a couple days with my final verdict. I'm now looking forward to chapters 60+ to see what the fuss is about.
While I agree with a few of Mugwump's points, I can't agree with the apoplexy.
-Sure, it's too long. A lot of authors, once they get to selling really well, no longer have to listen to their editors, and their works get longer and a little more tedious. At least, that's the way it seems to me.
-Sure, it doesn't live up to the best stuff he's ever written. He can't write the best thing he ever wrote every time.
-OK, the ending does get way too esoteric and incomprehensible. No argument there.
-However, I thought it was a lot of fun. I liked the thriller/detective story tropes that he threw in. So many people write from multiple character perspectives nowaday (even when they shouldn't); I thought it was cool that he wrote from multiple character perspectives but they were all the same character.
-I thought that he examined the consequences and ramifications of a technology of this type pretty well.
BTW, to touch on a point of SuSF's
I heard him give a talk at a science conference several years ago (wow, was 1997 really 6 years ago? ...wow...) He actually was saying that pervasive surveillance was a good thing, because people would be more well behaved and more polite to one another. He felt that individual privacy wouldn't be too infringed because almost everything you did would likely get lost in the noise of information overload from all that surveillance data. However, I don't think he'd fully considered the ramifications of the Internet, and he was talking before 9/11.The world is interesting too, in the way survellence is set up. Brin really does not like all the spy technology and cameras everywhere. He touched on this theme in his book "Earth" years ago.
Be that as it may, another book set in this universe is supposed to be coming out soon, Kiln Time. I'm looking forward to it.
Sorry this post is so long!
Thanks for starting this off, Sus.
No... the posts are good - don't mind the length - lots to say and think about - and very different views!
Compared with some parts of the Forum, the idea of the Book Club is where you can rant and rave about books in detail! Thus disagreement is good, providing we can agree to disagree, which we usually manage without too many problems! - I personally find it fascinating to see different people's perspectives on the same book!
Hobbit
Mark
Excessive length is my major issue with this piece of work. If Brin had trimmed say ... three hundred pages (not difficult) I'd have probably been a lot gentler with my review.Originally posted by Archren
While I agree with a few of Mugwump's points, I can't agree with the apoplexy.
-Sure, it's too long. A lot of authors, once they get to selling really well, no longer have to listen to their editors, and their works get longer and a little more tedious. At least, that's the way it seems to me.
In truth, I just fail to understand why authors feel the burning need to habitually go beyond say … two hundred and fifty pages with their stories. For heaven’s sake – two hundred and fifty pages should be more than enough to tell just about any tale!
Of course, I’m not saying that all lengthy books are bad books, because this clearly isn’t the case (Zanzibar, Dune etc.) but I think it’s fair to say that contemporary SF (mid-80s to present) tends to be overlong SF, and perhaps we’d all be better served if editors started demonstrating a touch more willingness to use the scissors.
Complete agreement with you on the length. This one probably should've come in at about 400 pages or less.
I've noticed that ultra-long trend too. What's up with that? Tad Williams and all three Otherland novels, 900+ pages each. Neal Stephenson with Cryptonomicon, 900+ pages, and now a similar trilogy, each book over 900 pages. Even the Harry Potter books are over 500 pages! Is that really necessary?
I guess one of my points is that with only 600 pages, Brin just doesn't seem so bad, compared to the worst offenders.
Mugwump - novel length is an interesting one, and I often prefer some of the shorter classics of the 40's-60's for that reason. Rather like in Fantasy novels where the 'fat fantasy syndrome' prevails, buyers sometimes equate length with quality/value for money. The 'curse of the trilogies' of course is another aspect of this. It can lead to 'Book X - the Special Edition' too!
Not always the case, as you say.
Hobbit
Mark
I read this book when it came out. Being a huge Brin fan, I wasted no effort to go to a book signing for this behemoth. Like others. I was a bit disappointed in the book. While it did have the usual Brin style of humor and wit, the ending was atrocious.
I loved the idea of dittos. as Brin put it, he was exploring what life would be like not if you lived forever, but rather could lead several lives all at once. It was a neat concept and I, for one, would love to have a couple of dittos to do the sludge work.
As for the length...I have ranted in this forum several times about the trend of longer and longer books. I still don't get it. I'm with Hobbit...the short, to the point books of the 40's - the 60's are refreshing after trudging through 600 page doorstoppers.
Kamakhya
I read this book some time ago so I can't remember many details but although this book is not a 'great work of science fiction' I found it enjoyable, entertaining, funny and above all original. I agree the ending wasn't great and looking back it could have been shorter (although it didn't really bother me at the time, which I agree is odd) but this book just sucked me in and I had a good time reading it, which may not make it a work of genius but it certainly has merit.
If I had to describe this book, I would say: Bloated, Self-Indulgent, and after reading all the way to the end, Arrogant.
This is only the 2nd Brin book I have read, and so I was thinking (based on my first read: Brightness Reef start of the 2nd Uplift Trilogy) that it would be good. I have the other 2 books in the new trilogy, but have not read them yet. I was also thinking it was probably the book that should have won the Hugo, had it not been held in Robert Sawyer's backyard. It was the last of the nominees I had still to read. But after reading Kiln People I truly think Sawyer deserved the win, because all the other nominees are IMO seriously flawed books.
Reading this book I was reminded of the syndrome where established, senior writers, who seem to have gotten away from storytelling, become wrapped up in their own self-importance and spend their book time passing on their great knowledge and accumulated wisdom on every topic under the sun. I think Brin has it, and his editor didn't do his/her job and make Brin fix it.
I actually didn't mind the SF detective thriller, but it was filled with bloat. It went on too long, and it was decidedly mediocre in terms of plot, twists and bad guys. There were so many twists, because they all fizzled.
The only characters I liked were the house computer that got blown away, the Ditto that became a Frankie, and the rodent version of Pal.
I think the book was actually about cloning and the type of society that would engender if cloning is treated as those who were above ("Woman Born") and those who were lower ("Man or Machine made"). There were all kinds of interesting angles in terms of identity, emotional and physical relationships, employment, entertainment, and war. I thought it was an interesting topic to explore, but his use of clay golems and soulistics was so far fetched that it moved the book into fantasy territory for me.
Wow, bummer guys! I just loved this book. I felt it was interesting from beginning to end and I didn't think it was long at all! And I'm NOT a fat fantasay fan at all.
The ONLY part that seemed drawn out a bit was the end, when he was fighting underground and found the golem army. Other than that the book raced along for me.
I loved the first uplift books of Brins and I didn't like the second more recent trilogy. Kiln People redeemed Brin in my estimation, however.
I was fascinated by the setting and the golems.
Hobbit, what did you think of the book?
Susan (I really, really want some green golems for yardwork!)
To be fair, Sus i can't comment properly as I've not finished the book yet. Having said that, I like it and have enjoyed what I've read, though I can also see some of the points above - see what happens when you read discussion threads before the book?
In short, some bits really good. Not one of his best, but I actually am enjoying it more than Brightness Reef and the rest of the second series Uplift books, funnily enough - which is why I thought Ficus's comments were interesting!
As ever, lots of divergent views on a book, which are great. I'm always impressed by how different people see the same book!
Hobbit
Mark
I agree that I like it better than the second Uplift trilogy. And I don't know if any of you have read Brin's "Glory Season" but Kiln People is certainly better than that one. But it doesn't quite match up to the first uplift books, or my all-time favorite, "Earth."
Still, that's OK. Brin write the absolute best aliens I've ever read, and I'll put the golems into that kind of category.
Boy, do I wish we had ditto tech. Do you know how many books I could read then? Maybe I'd actually be able to get my reading list to *decrease*!
I agree Archeren, Brin does the BEST aliens and I've missed the quality of the first uplift books. I never finished Glory Season or read any of the others. It just wasn't as good.
I always thought Brin was similar to another old favorite of mine, Larry Niven, but actually a bit more polished than Niven's aliens. I miss aliens, hehe.
I see a lot of similarity in Kiln People to Earth. The spy technology and the idea that you are being watched 24/7. Brin is really on a crusade against all of that and it shows a bit. Not that that's a bad thing...
Susan
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