March 12th, 2002, 01:55 AM
The Truth about Jon Snow
Absolutely do not read any further if you haven't read Storm of Swords yet!!
So what's your theory about Jon Snow? I no longer believe that he's Ned's son at all. I think he's actually the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark. It seems kinda obvious, given some of the hints Martin has dropped. I mean like Jojen's story about the tournament, Robert hating Rhaegar so much, Daenerys' vision of Rhaegar standing over a childbed saying, "He is one who was promised, he is the song of Ice and Fire," Ned thinking when he was in prison that there was something he had to tell Jon, the questionable likelyhood of Ned fathering a bastard in the first place, Jon's physical resemblance to Arya (who looks like Lyanna) when all Ned's kids take after their Tully mother, and lastly Ned's flashbacks of Lyanna dying and saying, "Promise me...".
Well, when I first read that I thought that Rhaegar had killed her or something and in the context he remembered in, I thought it was a hint of some dark deed Robert had committed. Now I think that she either died giving birth to Jon and the flashback took place shortly after Jon was delivered, or that she was wounded in the war. Whatever, the important thing is that I think the promise Ned made was to tell everyone that Jon was his son. I mean, the kid wouldn't have been long for the world if it became common knowledge that he was the son of Rhaegar. Going back to Daenerys' vision, if the son he'd been talking about had been Elia's child how would he have anything to do with ice?
I'm sure some of you other readers have come to the same conclusion but I have no one else to run this theory by (no one I know in person has read these books). If you guys disagree, what do you think is the truth about Jon?
March 12th, 2002, 02:28 AM
\m/ BEER \m/
Oh Joy ANOTHER George R.R. Martin topic.
March 12th, 2002, 02:37 AM
Well, I guessed that he wasn't descended from Ned, but from Lyanna; Ned's too unspeakably noble to be unfaithful, and it explains why he never talks about the mother.
I hadn't actually thought of Rhaegar, but it does make sense. Maybe he is the one who will bring balance to the Force (being born of both ice and fire)?
March 12th, 2002, 02:57 AM
Hey, easy Fitz. It's the most interesting thing I'm reading right now. Naturally I want to talk about it.
Unless you'd care to discuss some Akira with me?...
March 12th, 2002, 04:17 AM
\m/ BEER \m/
I was only half serious. Just seems like all people are talking about this week are Martin and Jordan. No real problem with either author, just that there are about 4 or 5 topics on each of them that seem to say the same or similar things.
March 12th, 2002, 04:18 AM
That theory isn't exactly new, but for what it's worth I agree with you.
I will add another argument too:
Ned's memories of the tower of joy. He fought three Kingsguard there, and the three best to boot. In the Hedgeknight we learn that the Kingsguard only and always guard members of the royal family. so why were they at the Dhornish border and not with Rhaegar at the trident or the king in king's landing? There is no "oficial member2 of the royal house unaccounted for. But an child of Rhaegar would qualify.
This raises another question though: Would a bastard qualify? We know the first Targaryan (sp?) king had two wives at once, it's possible that polygamy as incest is allowed in that dynasty, so did Rhaegar marry Lyanna? What does that mean for Jon's claims?
March 12th, 2002, 06:45 AM
Lord of the Wild Hunt
Barb., they could be guarding Lyanna Stark and just Lyanna Stark, if Rhaegar had wed her in secret.
Though it is likely_a_ child was there. It could be Jon. Obviously all the Symbolism refers to Lyanna drenched in blood= pregnant.
I personally I'm convinced that Aegon is alive as well and as such find myself thinking that maybe he had been smuggled to the Tower as well.
March 12th, 2002, 08:06 AM
Well, maybe they wouldn't all stay to guard Lyanna but they certainly would if it were Lyanna and a newborn Jon. It's funny, I hadn't actually thought of the why Ned was there. It seemed funny that he'd attack a tower with only seven men but I just thought "whatever" and forgot about it.
I doubt Rhaegar actually married Lyanna. If he did they'd probably have a harder time proving it than they would that Jon is Rhaegar's son. However, like they've said, a king can make a bastard legitimate. Or if a situation were to arise like the one which resulted in Robb being crowned (a bunch of nobles get behind someone and declare him leader) well, would it even matter if he was baseborn? History's written by the winners. I'm not sure Jon wouldn't turn down the throne, though. He already turned down Winterfell for the sake of his oath. Something important would have to happen to make the Night's watch unimportant (or nonexistant).
I didn't think it was a new theory but I missed out on past discussions because I hadn't read all the books yet. Oh and don't worry Fitz, soon as I get the next Crown of Stars or American Gods or whatever the next thing will be I know I'll end up starting threads about them. (I guess a repetitive forum's better than a dead one, also.)
March 15th, 2002, 12:43 AM
But, Jon didn't turn Winterfell down because of his oath, so much as because taking it would have meant "betraying his father's Gods" - in that Stannis wanted him to burn the Godswood. kinda morallly wrong, especially as his direwolf somewhat resemles the trees. A 'sign', methinks :-)
March 19th, 2002, 08:04 AM
Yeah, that's true Sam. I think Jon shoulda skewered Melisandre like a chicken for even suggesting it, myself.
Also, I still the Watch is pretty important to him.
[This message has been edited by saintjon (edited March 19, 2002).]
March 23rd, 2002, 04:31 AM
Are we sure that Jon turned down Winterfell? I know that he accepted the leadership of the Wall but I don't remember him telling Stannis that he did not want Winterfell. He would have a tough time breaking the oath and all, but maybe he will be the first King of the "True" north meaning, marrying the Wilding woman (I forgot her name) leading the Wall, and Being lord of Winterfell. Farfetched but possible I think.
March 24th, 2002, 10:11 AM
Lord of the Wild Hunt
I don't think the Jon and Winterfell matter is quite settled yet but I'd have to read the last section of Storm again to be absolutely sure of the importance Martin gives to the talk between Stannis and young Lord Snow.
I don't expect him ever to end up with Winterfell, though perhaps it's possible that he will have it temporarily, due to some twist of fate. When I'm thinking of this I can't wait to read more!
Obviously he won't betray the Gods. They are after all the Old Gods, the Gods of Winterfell itself
But perhaps some kind of compromise is made possible by GRRM.
[This message has been edited by Mithfânion (edited March 24, 2002).]
March 24th, 2002, 10:36 PM
i pretty much agree with everything saintjon said about snow not being ned's at all and the reasons why, but i'm curious as to how GRRM wil reveal this in the future books.
correct me if i'm wrong, but there's no one alive who can verify that Jon is Rhaegar's and Lyanna's.
having said that, im sure GRRM got some way to reveal it.
March 25th, 2002, 07:48 AM
I bet Howland Reed would know.
March 25th, 2002, 08:02 AM
I agree with saintjon because ive been wondering about that for quite a while and had a small suspicion jons parents were lyanna and rhaegon after i read the bit (cant remmeber that well now) where Daenarys gets the vision of the man and the woman in the room. I might be completely wrong but i doubt it coz im so damn supasmart