September BOTM: The Wreck of the River of Stars by Michael Flynn

**FicusFan** · January 22nd, 2005, 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by Himself

That's the one. The problem with writing science fiction set in the 1340's is that you can't just make stuff up. So the research on this b*****d has been tougher than on the future-settings of other stories. I have already played fast and loose with two events on purpose. a) The flagellant procession did not reach Strassburg until several months after the close of the story; and b) the Freiburg guilds did not storm Falcon Rock until a couple decades later. I have also learned that I may have let Will Ockham leave Munich too early, which may require me to shift a banquet scene or to create a work-around. I must Ponder.

Or you could just do an Author's Note at the start or the end and say that you have adjusted actual events for the purpose of the story. You are allowed dramatic license after all. I often don't mind when authors change things on purpose, but hate it when they don't do the research and get it wrong due to ignorance. If it really bothers you, list the events you moved and then add a listing of history books that you consider good sources and suggested reading. I hear publishers hate this, but I love a good fiction book that has a bibliography.

Of course I also have ulterior motives, I want to read the book sooner rather than later.

**Himself** · January 23rd, 2005, 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by FicusFan

Or you could just do an Author's Note at the start or the end and say that you have adjusted actual events for the purpose of the story. You are allowed dramatic license after all. I often don't mind when authors change things on purpose, but hate it when they don't do the research and get it wrong due to ignorance.

That's what I'll do regarding the flagellants and Falcon Rock; but I'm trying to keep everything else on the actual timeline. When the plague reached Berne, Basel, Strassburg, etc. The massacre of the Jews of Strassburg. The death of Will Ockham. Who was the Markgraf of Baden, the Duke of Hapsburg, the Count Palatine, etc. in 1348/49. I'm using actual items from various manorial rolls to create events on this particular salland.

Still wavering over the use of German versus English in certain contexts. In one way, translating Baerental and Hirschsprung to Bear Valley and Stag's Leap makes it more familiar; but should I call Freiburg "Free Town"? Do I say schloss instead of castle? Hof instead of manor? I'm using Herr for Lord, but should I use ritter for knight? Inquiring minds want to know.

**emohawk** · January 23rd, 2005, 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by Himself

Still wavering over the use of German versus English in certain contexts. In one way, translating Baerental and Hirschsprung to Bear Valley and Stag's Leap makes it more familiar; but should I call Freiburg "Free Town"? Do I say schloss instead of castle? Hof instead of manor? I'm using Herr for Lord, but should I use ritter for knight? Inquiring minds want to know.

I think most readers are fairly accepting as long as you establish what any unfamiliar German terms mean fairly early on and remain consistent throughout the novel. Besides, using the German terms gives the novel an air of differentiation and distinction

Speaking for myself, if I can feel comfortable with the slang in A Clockwork Orange by about a third of the way through, a few German terms wouldn't put my world into a spin.

**Erfael** · January 23rd, 2005, 04:05 PM

I have to agree with emo. I would rather have the flavor by using those common nouns in the German rather than translated. It helps make things much more distinct for me, rather than just another bunch of stock knights heading out to the manor house. Language paints many pictures, and knight and castle already have so many connotations in fantasy literature that I think it's a real opportunity to make things different and remarkable by using something people aren't used to. But, then again, I'm a sucker for the unique rather than the same-old....

**FicusFan** · January 23rd, 2005, 04:51 PM

I think Bear Valley and Stag's Leap are more evocative than the German (which I don't understand) that are just meaningless jawbreakers. Freiburg though is better than Free Town, and Schloss, Hof, and Herr are good; Ritter is not - ritter in shining armor just doesn't have the right ring to it

.

I imagine you need to be pretty consistent though and either use all German or all English otherwise your story will seem to be a hodge-podge. Don't know if you can split the difference and use all English place names and German titles and nouns, or the reverse. You probably do need some German to give it the feel of it being in an actual foreign country. Tough decision. But you can always just use holders while you write the story and sort it out at the end and go back and change it the way you want it.

.

Gotta go AFC game starts in half an hour - Go Pats !

**Himself** · January 24th, 2005, 08:16 PM

I think Bear Valley and Stag's Leap are more evocative than the German (which I don't understand) that are just meaningless jawbreakers. Freiburg though is better than Free Town, and Schloss, Hof, and Herr are good; Ritter is not - ritter in shining armor just doesn't have the right ring to it

.

I imagine you need to be pretty consistent though and either use all German or all English otherwise your story will seem to be a hodge-podge.

"ritter in shining armor." They're wearing chain mail. No shine.

It was when I came to buhudieren for tournament that I began to wonder if this was the way to go. But perhaps the German for certain basic terms but the Anglo-French for technical terms. I mean who knows from heriot versus buteil?

The story behind Stag's Leap is that a hunter was chasing a stag and the stag, coming to a point where Hell Valley gorge is fairly narrow, leapt all the way over to the other side. When the hunter followed, he could not leap as far.

**Erfael** · January 24th, 2005, 08:20 PM

Originally Posted by Himself

"ritter in shining armor." They're wearing chain mail. No shine.

Yeah, I was going to mention that in that time period there wasn't all that much shiny stuff going around....and most of the knights were not the nicest people anyway. So the typical vision of a knight in shining armor pretty much doesn't apply anyway.

**FicusFan** · January 24th, 2005, 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by Himself

"ritter in shining armor." They're wearing chain mail. No shine.

It was when I came to buhudieren for tournament that I began to wonder if this was the way to go. But perhaps the German for certain basic terms but the Anglo-French for technical terms. I mean who knows from heriot versus buteil?

If they are in chain then I am sure there is no shine, but whatever they are wearing, the saying is "Knight in shining armor", which was my point and ritter doesn't fit the bill.

Well no unless they speak or read the language the reader won't know the difference -- but French sticks out as being different than German and do you really want a third language confusing matters ?

**minibirte** · January 25th, 2005, 04:19 AM

Originally Posted by Himself

"ritter in shining armor." They're wearing chain mail. No shine.

It was when I came to buhudieren for tournament that I began to wonder if this was the way to go. But perhaps the German for certain basic terms but the Anglo-French for technical terms. I mean who knows from heriot versus buteil?

The story behind Stag's Leap is that a hunter was chasing a stag and the stag, coming to a point where Hell Valley gorge is fairly narrow, leapt all the way over to the other side. When the hunter followed, he could not leap as far.

Are the words in italics suppose to be German? If they are, you should just go ahead and use the English terms. (My native language is German and I nerver before heard those words, haven't read them in historical novels either...)

About reading the book: I'm about halfway through now and hopefully will have the time to finish it the next couple of days. I'm really liking it so far.

**Himself** · January 25th, 2005, 08:45 PM

Originally Posted by minibirte

Are the words in italics suppose to be German? If they are, you should just go ahead and use the English terms. (My native language is German and I nerver before heard those words, haven't read them in historical novels either...)

I suppose they are as current in German as heriot, merchet, crenelation, and trebuchet are in English.

**Himself** · January 25th, 2005, 08:51 PM

Originally Posted by Erfael

Yeah, I was going to mention that in that time period there wasn't all that much shiny stuff going around....and most of the knights were not the nicest people anyway. So the typical vision of a knight in shining armor pretty much doesn't apply anyway.

Some were; some weren't, like most eras. The fictional Manfred von Hochwald is okay (in the story) but the historical Philip von Falkenstein was a raubritter (robber knight).

**FicusFan** · January 25th, 2005, 10:01 PM

Originally Posted by Himself

Some were; some weren't, like most eras. The fictional Manfred von Hochwald is okay (in the story) but the historical Philip von Falkenstein was a raubritter (robber knight).

Ok now with raubritter I am seeing the big giant wicker rabbit from Monty Python and the Search for the Holy Grail . But I am unsure whether it shines or not.