Hi sffworld,
I'd like to open a thread on Space Opera. PLEASE tell me which is the best space opera you have read and why you liked it so much. Was it the science? The rip roaring adventure? The alien characterisation? The question's posed by the story?
I'll start be saying I'm a big fan of the later books in the Rama series by Arthur Clarke and Gentry Lee.
I thought their characterisation of Nicole Wakefield was interesting and series sense of wonder never failed to suck me along.
MDP
Do Red Dwarf or HHGG count? I suppose they aren't true space opera. They're certainly not serious and probably not what you meant but they are travelling thru space, and they are a series.
Space opera has always been a term that confuses me. What exactly does it represent? I've been a fan of Iain M Banks for a long time, does that count???
*hangs head in shame*
When I think of space opera that I've enjoyed, I tend to think of things like Elizabeth Moon's Serrano series or Walter Jon Williams Dread Empires Fall series. However, some other people pooh-pooh these pretty harshly, so I sort of don't talk about them much.
On the other hand, Alastair Reynolds' "Revelation Space" and Charlie Stross' "Singularity Sky" also seem to have space operatic bits in them, and lots of people rave about those (I love them too!). So like Jacquin, I'm often really unsure of what constitutes "Space Opera."
Fallen Dragon was one of the best space operas I've read in the past couple of years, and overall, on of my favorite books from the past couple of years.
In every sense of the word, this was an epic novel of one Hero's life journey. Expertly drawn characters against the back drop of interstellar travel. There is a story within the story, there is a love story there is a quest aspect to the novel. Big ideas against a great canvas.
I also really enjoyed Walter Hunt's The Dark Wing, a novel we discussed, I think as the June 2003 SF Book Club here at SFFWorld. I've got the next two books waiting to be read on my shelf. This had a military SF slant to it, but I really felt it was more Space Opera - a great clash between humans and an alien civilization. Great depictions of the aliens, their culture and beliefs.
The Miles Vorokosigan books by Lois McMaster Bujold. I'll say it once, twice, however many times until everyone has read them...best space opera ever!!
OOPS, just realised I have totally intruded here, sorry, I thought this was the Sci Fi section.
Anyway, I shall stand by my previous comment. I read some sci fi but I don't really get on with hard science, she has a delightful mix of science, wit and plot in her books which makes them worth reading regardless of genre.
Last edited by Leiali; February 3rd, 2005 at 11:45 AM.
My rather nebulous definition space opera:
Must have the following:
i) reminds me of E.E. 'Doc' Smith's LENSMAN series. We're talking 'first principles' here.
ii) clearcut goodies vs baddies (cowboys vs indians, police vs thieves etc)
iii) cosmic - on a planetary scale or larger. See i).
By that definition, my top 4:
1.Iain M. Bank: The Culture novels
- for me, the gold standard.
2.Lois McMaster Bujold: The Miles Vorkosigan novels
- much loved and for good reason. Great characterisation and humour.
3.Alastair Reynolds: The Inhibitors novels
- not as good as Iain Banks but is up there.
4.David Weber: Honor Harrington novels
- much more military SF. The earlier ones are better. Some of the prose can get turgid but enjoyable all the same.
Fitz,
Fallen Dragon has the same flaw as the Night's Dawn Trilogy; the deus ex machina at the end.
Hello all!
Ah - we're getting into categorisation (again!). When is a Space Opera a Space Opera (and perhaps more importantly, when is it not?
Just to get the basics out of the way (and for those who are not sure of what it is!) then can I suggest the following threads from the main sffworld site? Then you can get on with naming your favourite/best/most excellent:
Good Space Opera?
Favourite Space Opera
and
Greatest space opera Sci-Fi series (I've put this one in, even though it is more TV series than books.)
Hope this doesn't tread on toes! Not meant to, just trying to jog some ideas...
For me, the list is long and actually varies, depending on day, date and timezone.
Erm,for now: Asimov's Foundation series, first three Dune, (as ever, a sense of nostalgia for 'what you read first' applies here!), Dan Simmons's Hyperion/Endymion (and possibly Ilium/Olympos), Bujold's Vorkosigan series, Vinge's Snow Queen / Tiamat books (and Vernor's Darkness Across the Sky book). Iain M Banks, some CJ Cherryh, Peter Hamilton, Ken McLeod, Robert Read. And I'm sure this list will vary from some of the ones I've mentioned in the older threads!
Just ordered Scott Westerfeld's latest (soon to be released here in the UK, from Orbit, MDP!) as they are being hailed as 'better-than-average Space Opera'.
And just to upset things a little (sorry MDP!) I actually didn't like the later Rama books. And from a big ACC fan, that's a difficult admission to make.
IMO they were too slow, too drawn out and a very different style from the original Rama book, which I loved (but had all the things that people don't like about Arthur C's style!). (I'm big on the 'sense-of-wunda', which is something I like in SF / Space Opera, BUT I think Clarke's done it better elsewhere. *owch*
I also think others have tackled female heroines better.
Thinking further, What works for me in Space Opera (in no particular order): Drama. Characterisation. BIG ideas. Complicated plots, with lots of varied characters, human and non human! A sense of time and place: it has a history, a culture/s and lots of locations, to inspire that sense-of-wunda (again)... so in answer to your original post MDP - all of them!
Hobbit
Mark
Hi Hobbit,Originally Posted by Hobbit
Hello all!
Erm,for now: Asimov's Foundation series, first three Dune, (as ever, a sense of nostalgia for 'what you read first' applies here!), Dan Simmons's Hyperion/Endymion (and possibly Ilium/Olympos), Bujold's Vorkosigan series, Vinge's Snow Queen / Tiamat books (and Vernor's Darkness Across the Sky book). Iain M Banks, some CJ Cherryh, Peter Hamilton, Ken McLeod, Robert Read. And I'm sure this list will vary from some of the ones I've mentioned in the older threads!
Just ordered Scott Westerfeld's latest (soon to be released here in the UK, from Orbit, MDP!) as they are being hailed as 'better-than-average Space Opera'.
And just to upset things a little (sorry MDP!) I actually didn't like the later Rama books. And from a big ACC fan, that's a difficult admission to make.
IMO they were too slow, too drawn out and a very different style from the original Rama book, which I loved (but had all the things that people don't like about Arthur C's style!). (I'm big on the 'sense-of-wunda', which is something I like in SF / Space Opera, BUT I think Clarke's done it better elsewhere. *owch*
I also think others have tackled female heroines better.
Thinking further, What works for me in Space Opera (in no particular order): Drama. Characterisation. BIG ideas. Complicated plots, with lots of varied characters, human and non human! A sense of time and place: it has a history, a culture/s and lots of locations, to inspire that sense-of-wunda (again)... so in answer to your original post MDP - all of them!
Hobbit
and thank you everyone for venturing here to talk about this.
I thought the last Rama book was quite a sensitive handling of old age which is something not done much in SO. Biut it is different from the new wave of S.O.
Yes, I think Orbit are very excited about Scott's book 'The Risen Empire'. I've not read it yet (on the bedside table) but his earlier books show a beautiful writing talent.
Now I'd like to ask you to compare the big three Iain M. Banks, Peter Hamilton and Alistair Reynolds. Pros and Cons and differences. I'm currently deep into Pandora's Star and for the most part enjoying it.
MDP
Why is that do you think? I haven't read WJW, and have only read one of Serrano.When I think of space opera that I've enjoyed, I tend to think of things like Elizabeth Moon's Serrano series or Walter Jon Williams Dread Empires Fall series. However, some other people pooh-pooh these pretty harshly, so I sort of don't talk about them much.
MDP
No, no, you haven't intruded! Welcome to the discussion. I love Lois Bujold as well, though prefer Miles to her fantasy books.OOPS, just realised I have totally intruded here, sorry, I thought this was the Sci Fi section.
Anyway, I shall stand by my previous comment. I read some sci fi but I don't really get on with hard science, she has a delightful mix of science, wit and plot in her books which makes them worth reading regardless of genre.
MDP
Hmm. All three are British. There are rumblings round here of a British renaissance in Sf at the moment, with those three, Stross and the ubiquitous Stephen Baxter usually mentioned.Now I'd like to ask you to compare the big three Iain M. Banks, Peter Hamilton and Alistair Reynolds.
OK. Iain M B - what I like: he does vary his style a lot. (Feersum Enjinn versus Player of Games for example). Space Opera with a complex (often political) edge and some humour, which I usually find is difficult to do and doesn't always work for me in other writer's work. Complex social & political issues, some explicit, some that you pick up as backstory. Often a fast pace (though I have heard that said less about The Algabraist, which is still waiting to be read.). Anything I don't like: Actually there's very little - even in the ones I like less, I can usually admire something. Out of the list probably the one I would recommend first.
Peter Hamilton. Has a unique individual style - rather like a more contemporary Arthur C Clarke. Lots of places, lots of characters, (though I find they don't change that much from book to book). Breadth rather than depth.
Difficult to actually explain this one, but IMO Peter's writing style is very 'British'. I find it difficult to try and explain this one, but his writing is not what I usually find in other writers from other countries. Perhaps it's the social characteristics, the terms of reference, the character of the characters (!) that I can identify with (even if they're not always my own)? This is in the same way as I would say that Stephen King's style/recognition points are American, I guess.
Also, Peter uses present day ideas and companies in a future setting well - there are connections from the future to the present here, (though his books are set in the future, as an extension of 'now'). Does tension and battles well, I think. I do find his endings a let down sometimes. Felt that with Fallen Dragon and The Naked God. Really enjoyed Pandora's Star (and waiting for the next - Judas Unchained?) despite the cliffhanger ending. (Don't think that's a spoiler!). His style has refined, though rarely changed, IMO.
Really wasn't sure about Misspent Youth. One of the more frequent complaints I hear about his work is that most of the characters are scheming, nasty and manipulative, and that they don't change that much from book to book. There are some rather obvious stereotypes used, though I like his pace. A good page turner, and as you say, I enjoy his work on the whole. Think Pandora's Star is my favourite, though I like the older Greg Mandel stories a lot (Mindstar Rising etc).
Alastair Reynolds. A author who I think I've enjoyed more as his writing has developed. Lots of BIG SPACESHIPS, COMPLEX TECHNOLOGY, cool species, action. Characters weaker, but have improved. Can be rather padded in places IMO which has slowed it down and made it a little hard going at times. Revelation Ark I put down twice before I got into it. Lots of 'big science' ideas. Most enjoyed: Chasm City, though I really enjoyed his latest, Century Rain; however, a lot of people haven't.
Hobbit
Mark
Hi Hobbit,
thank you for all this, I found your opinions on this v. interesting. From what I have read of Banks and Hamilton, I would agree. Alistair Reynolds I have started several times and stopped. Not sure why. But am pleased to give him another go once my pile has diminished.
Jon Courtenay Grimwood is another Brisitsh writer I greatly admire. He has a stylish touch and am looking forward to reading Stamping Butterflies.
My next couple of books are Space Opera, so you can check back with me in time and tell me how I'm doing against the greats
best
MDP
LOL... I look forward to that, Marianne.My next couple of books are Space Opera, so you can check back with me in time and tell me how I'm doing against the greats...
Concerning the Alastair Reynolds, can I suggest you try Century Rain? It is different for him, but I enjoyed it. Erm, romanticalternatehistorywithChandleresque qualities? It wasn't perfect but I did like it.
Oh, AND Richard Morgan. Think you'll like him, if you've not come across his work yet. Link to his website HERE. Very violent, but good stuff. If you haven't already, try Altered Carbon for starters. (NOM / James Barclay gave us the heads up here at sffworld before the first book (Altered Carbon) came out, for which I'm very grateful).
I should've mentioned Jon Courtnay Grimwood as well. In fact, I have mentioned him a few times in the SF Forum, but he's getting little exposure in the US at the moment. I can see why you like him though, I think.
I'm lucky enough to have a signed copy of Stamping Butterflies which I got just before Christmas. I keep dipping into it. The original premise I wasn't sure about, but he is wonderful and it's sucked me in. The Arabesk series got better and better and got my vote last time. Don't think I'm giving too much away, but from a tough list of nominees for the BSFA Awards this year*, if he keeps what I've read of Butterflies up, he's probably going to get my vote.
(*The list is: Century Rain – Alastair Reynolds (Gollancz SF)
Forty Signs of Rain – Kim Stanley Robinson (HarperCollins)
Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell – Susanna Clarke (Bloomsbury)
Newton's Wake – Ken MacLeod (Orbit)
River of Gods – Ian McDonald (Simon and Schuster)
Stamping Butterflies – Jon Courtenay Grimwood (Gollancz SF)
I'm working on the list. It took me nearly 3 months to read Strange/Norrell, but I've just got the last three to go.
Hobbit
Mark
I'm a fan of Ian MacDonald's Chaga books so must get a copy of ROG's.
He's writes dense, evocative prose which I find engrossing. Now..are there any female SF writers out there that you can think of doing this type of thing. I'd love to see Nicola Griffith or Gwynneth Jones venture into grand SO.
MDP
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