Larry Niven, Ringworld and the BDO

[Ropie]

I am currently reading Ringworld for the first time and have to say that I'm really enjoying it, for the pure thrill of discovery and scale, similar to the feelings I had reading Rendezvous with Rama (Clarke) and Eon (Greg Bear) years ago. One thing I particularly like about it is the cartoon quality of the characters - probably something to do with their vivid descriptions and amusing appearances - which saves them from suffering under the weight of their own cliche and stereotype that can so often affect SF characterization.

Anyway, I was wondering if Ringworld is the first instance of the 'Big Dumb Object' in SF, or if it actually has many precedents. Are there any novels that came before it (as Rama and Eon came after) where the BDO is the centre of the story? For that matter, are there many that came after too, as I'd be interested in reading any of them - it being a favourite theme of mine.

[Mugwump]

Originally Posted by Ropie

I am currently reading Ringworld for the first time and have to say that I'm really enjoying it, for the pure thrill of discovery and scale, similar to the feelings I had reading Rendezvous with Rama (Clarke) and Eon (Greg Bear) years ago. One thing I particularly like about it is the cartoon quality of the characters - probably something to do with their vivid descriptions and amusing appearances - which saves them from suffering under the weight of their own cliche and stereotype that can so often affect SF characterization.

You are correct. Niven's characters are plucked from the pages of cartoon fiction. And that's why I found them jarringly at odds with his awe-inspiring and un-cartoon-like descriptions of the ringworld.

I doubt any critically acclaimed piece of SF has infuriated me more.

Anyway, I was wondering if Ringworld is the first instance of the 'Big Dumb Object' in SF, or if it actually has many precedents. Are there any novels that came before it (as Rama and Eon came after) where the BDO is the centre of the story? For that matter, are there many that came after too, as I'd be interested in reading any of them - it being a favourite theme of mine.

I can't think of too many that preceded Ringworld. You could try Bob Shaw's excellent Orbitsville which was written a few years later.

[Gkarlives]

Charles Sheffield's Heritage Universe has several BDO and is the theme of the series. Start with "Summertide".

[Ropie]

Originally Posted by Mugwump

You are correct. Niven's characters are plucked from the pages of cartoon fiction. And that's why I found them jarringly at odds with his awe-inspiring and un-cartoon-like descriptions of the ringworld.

I doubt any critically acclaimed piece of SF has infuriated me more.

Yes, I can see what you mean; the childishness of the characters does detract from some of the Ringworld phenomena. However, the Ringworld, after all, is a two-dimensional copy of a planet-scape (albeit looped into a ring) and in this way it matches the two-dimensionality of the 'cartoon' characters. And I think I would be enjoying the book less if it had been populated with the kind of wooden space-cowboys you find in Clarke's or Bear's novels.

Thanks for those two recommendations; I'll have a look at them this morning

[ArthurFrayn]

You are correct. Niven's characters are plucked from the pages of cartoon fiction. And that's why I found them jarringly at odds with his awe-inspiring and un-cartoon-like descriptions of the ringworld.

I doubt any critically acclaimed piece of SF has infuriated me more.

This continues to mystify me. I should let this go and will after this -I promise. I just don't understand why this book which blows through my hands like air any time I've read it, gets you so PO'd.
So much of older SF leading right through the 70's had characters pretty much of the same stock. Let's take a book like the Fritz Lieber's "The Big Time" which also won a Hugo. Is that "Oh yeah, this is much better -the characters are so deep-so well rounded?" Feels like the same kind of characters to me. Zelazny's "This Immortal/Call Me Conrad"-another acclaimed Hugo winner-full of deep characters rich with psychological insights??

My point? Why do keep on nailing Ringworld for something that is symptomatic of most of the SF of that period? Why not just say it's dated and have done with it in that fashion?It is not the worst offender in this regard and it has the saving virtue of
not taking itself seriously.
That is something that is not always true of space opera today.

Besides, this means you don't like the Pierson's Puppeteers?



You know, I know something about coming to the party late. I read Hitchhikers Guide within the past couple of years. I found it dated ,but mildy amusing. I didn't think it was "howlingly funny";I didn't think it was a profound satire of SF or the human condition(more of an obvious, but good natured SF parody), and I certainly didn't think it was one of best SF books of all time.
But I didn't rail against all that and label it rubbish.And the gushing clatter about HGG is never ending.

[Yobmod]

Actually I think this:

You are correct. Niven's characters are plucked from the pages of cartoon fiction. And that's why I found them jarringly at odds with his awe-inspiring and un-cartoon-like descriptions of the ringworld.

I doubt any critically acclaimed piece of SF has infuriated me more.

sums up pretty well. The awe-inspiring parts make it a worthwhile book, but decent characters would have made it great - hence its infuriating because of all the unexploited potential.

Whereas i didn't think This Imortal had anything sufficiently great to make up for its flaws in the same way, so instead of infuriating its just a bit boring.


I can't think of any older BDO's either. Iain Banks' excession is a newer example tho.

[Ropie]

Originally Posted by Yobmod

I can't think of any older BDO's either. Iain Banks' excession is a newer example tho.

Yes! I'd forgotten about this one - I have a very tatty second hand copy on my shelf which I should dig out. Thanks for reminding me

As for Ringworld, I actually enjoyed the cartoonishness of the characters, expecially the amusingly cowardly puppeteer. I finished it this morning and for me, the book fell down for the last 80 pages or so. The trouble with all the excitement and discovery of the earlier parts was that nothing was left for the ending except the rather dull episodes in the floating building they converted into a form of transport. The idea about the shadow-square wire was interesting but it was all spoilt by the childish sex-scenes and the dull character of the bald Ringworld woman. It was a shame as I felt the first four-fifths was an excellent book.

[Mugwump]

Originally Posted by ArthurFrayn

This continues to mystify me. I should let this go and will after this -I promise. I just don't understand why this book which blows through my hands like air any time I've read it, gets you so PO'd.
So much of older SF leading right through the 70's had characters pretty much of the same stock. Let's take a book like the Fritz Lieber's "The Big Time" which also won a Hugo. Is that "Oh yeah, this is much better -the characters are so deep-so well rounded?" Feels like the same kind of characters to me. Zelazny's "This Immortal/Call Me Conrad"-another acclaimed Hugo winner-full of deep characters rich with psychological insights??

My point? Why do keep on nailing Ringworld for something that is symptomatic of most of the SF of that period? Why not just say it's dated and have done with it in that fashion?It is not the worst offender in this regard and it has the saving virtue of
not taking itself seriously.

I'll attempt the best answer I can:

Yes, Ringworld is dated - but that's not the problem. I read a lot of old Science Fiction. Stuff from thirty or forty years ago - right back to the works of H.G. Wells and friends. I can cope with dated. I can make allowances for it. If I couldn't I'd find it impossible to enjoy the anachronistic delights of Heinlein, Asimov, Eric Frank Russell, Clifford Simak, James Blish and so forth.

The main issue I have with Niven is, like Poul Anderson, he can’t write characters or dialogue. Now, don’t misunderstand me. I’m not asking for fully realized, emotionally complex “three-dimensional” protagonists. I’m not even asking for “three dimensional” (hell, I’d rule out two-thirds of SF if did). I just want, at the very least, reasonably interesting people/creatures who I can engage with on some facile level. Niven doesn’t deliver them because he’s a tourist guide author who has little understanding of the basics storytelling. Yes the sophisticated and intelligent concepts are there. Yes his colorful and evocative descriptions of the ringworld work well. But the “living” elements are disastrous: jarring people who do and say even more jarring things. It’s this juxtaposition of the sublime and the ridiculous that I find difficult to digest.

A friend of mine thinks I’m a hypocrite because I like Rendezvous with Rama and loathe Ringworld. He argues that the books are pretty much facsimiles (awe-inspiring descriptions of backdrop, rubbish characters). I think he’s wrong because whilst Clarke’s characters are infamously lightweight (the only semi-decent character study written by Clarke I can think of is The Fountains of Paradise), they’re never jarring. Clarke also had the good sense to make his main character the spacecraft itself, which is without doubt the star of the book. Niven, on the other hand negates the spectacle of ringworld by shoving a seven foot walking, talking cat (or some other vapid creation) under the reader’s nose just when his imagination is luxuriating in the grandiosity of it all. It’s like trying to eat a monster tub of Häagen-Dasz with the phone ringing every sixty seconds.

[KatG]

I'd disagree with comparing Niven and Anderson on characterization. It seems to me that Niven was deliberately constructing humorous characters and that he does so with a great deal of flare. Whereas, I have to admit, though I've tried several times, I find Anderson's prose style mind-numbing and stilted to the point where I can't ignore it to look at how he's exploring a scientific concept. In "Ringworld," Niven does do a very good job of explaining the Ringworld in a way that is very accessible. He then, as part of the New Wave, concentrates on social issues with a lot of satire. (The sections where they are dealing with godhood are particular examples.) "Ringworld" doesn't seem to me dated except of course for the good-natured chauvinism that is epidemic in those earlier decades of sf (seeing women as brave, smart and amazing, like cute little puppies.) It is, rather, a fairly adventurous mix of hard sf with the sociological sf which was becoming the popular form of the time, giving people equal rations of swashbuckling adventure, comedy and pretty emotional drama. I'm still not sure it all works exactly, and in the end, I couldn't quite get into either the hard science or the social issues, but I do think Niven deserves points for trying to do something with a scope sf really hadn't attempted before, and doing it with cheeky style.

But my main question is: what do you mean by Big Dumb Object?

[Ropie]

Originally Posted by KatG

But my main question is: what do you mean by Big Dumb Object?

It's just silly SF jargon for a mysterious object, usually a 'world' or a spacecraft of some kind, that serves as both a focal point and backdrop for a story.

ArthurFrayn, thanks for the link. Exactly what I was after.

[Great Zamfir]

The first time I heard about BDO's was in the "Encyclopedia of SF", a very very large book. They had a "Big dumb object" entry and articles on books with BDO's referred to that article. I always thought this book invented the word "BDO"?

[ArthurFrayn]

I guess allowances we give to the shortcomings of authors is ultimately idiosyncratic.My last reading of Ringworld, maybe 10 years ago,was fast and fun. I really do like the Pierson's Puppeteer character.
I'm do for another spin on this book soon;I'll see if I can catch your POV.
Bad dialogue grates on me as well, and I dont remember having an exceptional prob with that in Ringworld. I did have it with This Immortal, which suffers from wisecrackeritus,but I still ultimately enjoyed the read. I like Clarke as well and we've discussed his deficiencies with regard to character in other posts.


Anyway,fair enough,I'm done on this one, I think.



Actually,I remember Poul Anderson's Brain Wave as not being bad.

[Mugwump]

Originally Posted by ArthurFrayn

I guess allowances we give to the shortcomings of authors is ultimately idiosyncratic.My last reading of Ringworld, maybe 10 years ago,was fast and fun. I really do like the Pierson's Puppeteer character.
I'm do for another spin on this book soon;I'll see if I can catch your POV.
Bad dialogue grates on me as well, and I dont remember having an exceptional prob with that in Ringworld.

Niven's dialogue is bad, but nowhere near as bad as Poul Anderson's.

Lesson #18: How to show appreciation toward your Scandinavian ancestors in the most screeching-fingernails-across-blackboard fashion imaginable:

“Uh-huh,” he grunted. “I’ve read an occasional history book myself. General disarmament; a world police force to maintain it; sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes? Who can we trust with a monopoly of the planet killer weapons and unlimited powers of inspection and arrest? Why, a country big and modern enough to make peace keeping a major industry; but not big enough to conquer anyone else or force its will on anyone without the support of a majority of nations; and reasonably well thought of by everyone. In short, Sweden.” – Poul Anderson, Tau Zero.

There should be laws to keep us safe from this.

[ArthurFrayn]

Found a link online with a list:

http://encycl.opentopia.com/term/Big_Dumb_Object

They have a listing of a Clifford D Simak story from '49-"Limiting Factor" featuring an abandoned machine world.I'm personally not familiar with this one.

If you agree from having read it, OR are willing to take whoever wrote this online entry at their word, there's the original BDO.


BTW, I've been reading that Poul Anderson quote above a few times and it aint getting any better.
I'll agree- euphonious prose it isn't.

[Doug4117]

What is your opinion of this author? Of the authors currently producing novels, how would you rank him? I've seen some of his stuff go rather quickly on eBay, so I would think he's particularly popular.

--Doug