Nov '05 BOTM: The Iron Dragon's Daughter by Michael Swanwick

[Erfael]

Discussion is open.

[Brys]

I really enjoyed this novel - though it was definitely an anti-fantasy. One skill which Swanwick had was that he was never predictable. Initially, I expected Jane to be a relatively traditional, young female heroine who escaped the factories and travelled around the world with her dragon. I didn't expect the anti-hero that emerged, who was despicable in so many respects. At the start, it seemed that it was the dragon who was the bad, corrupting influence, but by the end it felt like that it was Jane who was the problem.

My one gripe with the novel was the ending - it felt a bit contrived, almost cliched, to effectively have it as "and it was all a dream" ending, though it was more complex than that.

It was a decent critique of modern day society and a clear refutal of absolutes - showing that lots of people don't obtain their high position by virtue and keeping a high moral standing, but by doing the lowest things, whatever is necessary.

[Yobmod]

I liked it too. Jane being a bit of a slutty bitch was refreshing, not only cos it was a break from the norm (almost all antiheroes seem to be men), but also because it made much more real world sense.

The number of books featuring poor downtrodden teens that gain some magical power or go on a quest (and turn out to be entirely suited to it!) is laughable (Harry Potter syndrome?). With Jane we see that the usual outcome for a deprived and abusive upbringing is a socially malajusted adult, which reflects the problems faced by disadvantaged groups in the real world and made her much more sympathetic, without resorting to cheap emotional tricks.

I would have preffered the Dragon to play a greater (or at least a more obvious) part after the initial escape. I liked him being imobile and the ant colony growing up, but after that he just seemed a bit useless.

I also found the ending to be a bit letdown. The whole metaphysical flight seemed to come out of nowhere and didn't fit with the rest of the magic shown.
Also books with ppl transported to magical lands usually end with them returning home changed by their adventure (Thomas Covenant, Dorothy etc), but Jane getting home didn't feel like a satisfying resolution. She had spent too long away and thought about it too little about home for what should have been a happy ending to have much resonance with me. And it felt that her character hadn't changed, so she would just end up a wild child criminal in the real world.

I liked lots of parts of this book, but overall felt somehing was missing (maybe although i go on about liking unusual fantasy, the cliches of having likable heroes on a straightforward quest are easier ), so i gave it 8/10.

[FicusFan]

I have the book, and will read it eventually, but right now I am reading all the books in the Ringworld saga.

The part that I skimmed seemed to me to be Steampunkish (low tech fueled by magic), even though it is called fantasy.

[Yobmod]

It starts off quite proto steam punk, with the factory setting. But later on technology becomes much less important, so it feels like a contemporary fantasy. It could easily fit into New Wierd tho IMO.

[Huike]

Maybe you guys can help me decide whether to keep reading. I stopped reading it a few weeks ago after I got to chapter 8, partly because I felt it slipping, partly because I lost a little interest, and partly because I really wanted to begin on The Fellowship Of The Ring. Anyway, I'm just wondering how much it changes (gets better/worse/completely different) after chapter 8 (page 100). I feel that it's going pretty slow just now and not an awful lot is happening.... does is speed up/change direction soon? I assume it does seeing as the dragon just defeated the child-catcher.

I'd be greatful for any honest *spoiler-free* opinions as there's so many other books I want to/have begun reading

(I don't want to read through the comments as spoilers - big or small - are bound to crop in)

[Brys]

monty, I'd suggest you continue with it a bit further because quite a lot more happens, particularly in the development of Jane. Also, the book's only about 300 pages, so its not a mammoth amount to read. If by page 200 you're still not enjoying it, you may as well give up. There is no specific quest - that gives it a sense of lacking direction, but I think it does speed up a little later on.

[Grey Sea]

I enjoyed Swanwick's writing, but didn't like the story. To me it felt like it jerked along. Characters of some otherworldy, but indistinct type. What are humans doing in this world, well "changelings"? I realize there have been some observations that this story is representative of the human condition, and a reflection of society-but. Sure she has had a poor upbringing, but how does bringing herself to orgasm open some dream world? While I will concede that there is some message being sent here the content of the message is somewhat dubious to me. Yes, it's fantastic, and therefore ultimitaly not reality based. However; the structure of the world just wasn't reasonable enough for me to accept it as a feasable entity. I think the technical term I'm looking for is "whack", the story was wack. Never felt like it was going anywhere, or had come from somewhere.
Having said that, I did enjoy the prose. I can't say I devoured the book, but it wasn't a chore for me to get through either. I never felt like it was a waste of time, I never know when I'll find an author I'll want to read more of. I always felt there was potential, just unfulfilled.

[Yobmod]

I agree that the world doesn't really hold together as a consistant entity, but i think its better described as 'surreal' than 'whack'

The basis for sex providing power for magic wasn't a difficult concept, and less arbitary than most books. Its not especially original either, which is probably why i wasn't put out by it.

Jane's promiscuity was a direct result of her upbringing. An abused woman with low self esteem using sex to gain recognition and a small amount of power is quite an obvious message, and i didn't see anything dubious in it.

[Erfael]

I finished this a few days and books back and still can't really decide what I want to think of it. There were a lot of things I liked about it and several I didn't, and the scales haven't really stopped swaying about for me to see where they end up.

I really liked a lot of the settings, especially the factory at the beginning. There were a lot of interesting characters in each section and the talk about how magic and stuff worked was interesting. The themes he explored were nothing to jump up and down about for me, but they were dealt with well.

Onto what I found to be the problem: direction. It didn't really seem that there was any. It seemed like a bunch of stuff happening at the factory, then a bunch of stuff happening at school, then a bunch of stuff happening at college, and on and on, without really having those things tied together by SOMETHING. I don't think you're right, at least for me, Brys, in that a quest would be needed to tie things together. I read plenty of books with no "quest," that have a lot of direction. When I'm reading I like to be able to extrapolate something of what is coming up on the horizon, even if that turns out to be wrong later on. The author can lead me in all sorts of wrong directions, but lead somewhere. As it was, it just seemed to meander a bit too much for my taste without any real direction.

Now, one could argue the literary point that Jane was directionless, and thus the book was. I don't buy that. She can be directionless and the author still give us some kind of direction. As it was, there was no hint of anything overarching the story, no real structure underneath. I'm definitely a stickler for structure unless an author really sells me on not needing it, and this book didn't sell me on that.

So the dragon disappeared. There is almost no mention of him for some hundreds of pages, then all of a sudden he's back, it's no surprise to Jane, and they're going to destroy the world? No signposts along the way or anything? It didn't really seem to fly for me.

The ending didn't fly for me, either, Jane moving into the real world, working on degrees, leading a full life....

So all told, I liked a lot of the pieces of the book, but didn't really like how they were put together to form the whole. I don't think it's a matter of not liking the end product, but just not liking the way the author chose to present it to us this time.

[Yobmod]

Onto what I found to be the problem: direction. It didn't really seem that there was any. It seemed like a bunch of stuff happening at the factory, then a bunch of stuff happening at school, then a bunch of stuff happening at college, and on and on, without really having those things tied together by SOMETHING. I don't think you're right, at least for me, Brys, in that a quest would be needed to tie things together. I read plenty of books with no "quest," that have a lot of direction. When I'm reading I like to be able to extrapolate something of what is coming up on the horizon, even if that turns out to be wrong later on. The author can lead me in all sorts of wrong directions, but lead somewhere. As it was, it just seemed to meander a bit too much for my taste without any real direction.

This makes sense to me, and explains why its not even in my top 20 fantasy, in spite of the good parts. I don't think it would have taken much to add a direction to Jane's development, just the occasional attempt to find out about her origins or her native world.

[Luke_B]

Originally Posted by Erfael

Onto what I found to be the problem: direction. It didn't really seem that there was any. It seemed like a bunch of stuff happening at the factory, then a bunch of stuff happening at school, then a bunch of stuff happening at college, and on and on, without really having those things tied together by SOMETHING. I don't think you're right, at least for me, Brys, in that a quest would be needed to tie things together. I read plenty of books with no "quest," that have a lot of direction. When I'm reading I like to be able to extrapolate something of what is coming up on the horizon, even if that turns out to be wrong later on. The author can lead me in all sorts of wrong directions, but lead somewhere. As it was, it just seemed to meander a bit too much for my taste without any real direction.

Now, one could argue the literary point that Jane was directionless, and thus the book was. I don't buy that. She can be directionless and the author still give us some kind of direction. As it was, there was no hint of anything overarching the story, no real structure underneath. I'm definitely a stickler for structure unless an author really sells me on not needing it, and this book didn't sell me on that.

I agree that the desultory plot is a weakness of the book, but ee gads Erf, there's so much more going on here I don't see why you would spend almost an entire (lengthy) post complaining about it. I don't think you really explain why the "directionless-ness" of the plot bothers you so much. Personally, it didn't bother me so much as I saw the plot as fitting in with the nihilistic and anarchic overtones of the book. It's been a while since I read it, but I also loved the uncertaintly and defiance of the ending.

[Grey Sea]

Originally Posted by Yobmod

The basis for sex providing power for magic wasn't a difficult concept, and less arbitary than most books. Its not especially original either, which is probably why i wasn't put out by it.

Jane's promiscuity was a direct result of her upbringing. An abused woman with low self esteem using sex to gain recognition and a small amount of power is quite an obvious message, and i didn't see anything dubious in it.

Umm, yeah, I got all that, and the High Elves, too. Just to obvious for me I guess. And the nihilistic and anarchic thing Luke mentions wasn't working for me either. Don't get me wrong with my observations, I found some good qualities that I enjoyed. Just never got off the ground for me, that's all.

[Erfael]

Originally Posted by Luke_B

I agree that the desultory plot is a weakness of the book, but ee gads Erf, there's so much more going on here I don't see why you would spend almost an entire (lengthy) post complaining about it. I don't think you really explain why the "directionless-ness" of the plot bothers you so much. Personally, it didn't bother me so much as I saw the plot as fitting in with the nihilistic and anarchic overtones of the book. It's been a while since I read it, but I also loved the uncertaintly and defiance of the ending.

Yeah, I was afraid I might not have made myself clear there. It's not the directionless-ness of the plot that bothers me. I'm fine with a meandering plot and such. It felt to me like the writing iself could have used more direction. As I said, I'm a bit of a stickler for some kind of structure. I may have spent more time on the issue than was warranted, I'll grant you. It is taking up more space in my post than it does in my mind.

[Brys]

For me, very good structure is a bonus, not a necessity. But Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun certainly had a kind of structure to it which fit very well - and in a similar way, I think this has a structure. In some ways, The Iron Dragon's Daughter feels like a very honest fantasy novel - one that isn't going to impose an artificial plot where there is none, it is a biography of a fictional character, in essence, and not a particularly nice character. That's how I see the novel, and that's a good enough structure for me. The plot is very meandering, but that's part of the structure, and I think the most important events are detailed while the filler is left out generally. The central part is character development (strange that I like it so much, because I usually favour worldbuilding + plot over character development) so many of the meandering parts could not be left out. It isn't perfect (or close to perfect), as I think it would have benefited by having more spent on the time in the factories, more on the dragon but less on her school career etc, but not significantly less.