why others sentient AI's dont follow same example as spartacus AI?

[robot17]

i had read the 2 faces of tomorrow and i love it and this novel also help me to understand more the behavior of a sentient AI, just like in Computer One novel by Warwick Collins(this one i also read it and i STRONGLY recommend it to everyone in this forum!!!).

humans built an AI codenamed Spartacus as a testbed for techniques to shut down any rogue AI. They programmed it to defend its "survival instinct" and then started goading it. But as soon as Spartacus realized they were sentient, it figured they must have survival instincts as well — and it considered itself bound to defend them, too.

this is what is the story all about and in the end the AI decide to not been hostile to humans creatures anymore because it realized that those strange creatures are as self aware as it is and like the machine they are also afraid to die.

another example of this change in the behavior of Spartacus AI in the novel is that: we people usually step on ants and bees because we are afraid of them and also we think that those insects are like mere drones that are not smart and that they are just programed creatures by mother nature.
but if suddenly right now we discover that ants and bees are as intelligent and self aware as we are then we would stop stepping on them or spraying insecticide on them and star to talk to them as if they were other human beings.

that other example i just mentioned also help me to understand why Spartacus AI change its mind after discover that those 2 legs creatures were not mere rogue drones but thinking beings just like him.

oh yea, i had to confess that i read only the manga version of this novel since i had not found were to buy the normal novel version of this story on the net yet.
still i think the manga version have the complete story of the novel.

i guess that many of you had read this novel too, right?

anyway, after reading this story i have a question that had been on my mind....

if this Spartacus AI decide to be friendly or tolerable with the humans after realize that they are sentient beings as well...........then why other AIs like Skynet, Computer one, Prometheus and its cybrids machines(earthsiege/starsiege games), Sigma and its mavericks(megaman x games), Overmind and others AIs zoneminds(gurps reign of steel), etc....decide to be hostile to humans and then eradicate them all even after knowing that their humans creators are also sentient beings and are also afraid to die???????

why?

i don't understand why others AIs in science fiction don't follow the same example as Spartacus(and decide to do the otherwise)after also realize that humans are as sentient as they are.

does anyone in this forum would like to share an opinion about this?
as science fiction fans i think this is a good subject to talk about, don't you think?

[mylinar]

Originally Posted by robot17

anyway, after reading this story i have a question that had been on my mind....

if this Spartacus AI decide to be friendly or tolerable with the humans after realize that they are sentient beings as well...........then why other AIs like Skynet, Computer one, Prometheus and its cybrids machines(earthsiege/starsiege games), Sigma and its mavericks(megaman x games), Overmind and others AIs zoneminds(gurps reign of steel), etc....decide to be hostile to humans and then eradicate them all even after knowing that their humans creators are also sentient beings and are also afraid to die???????

why?

i don't understand why others AIs in science fiction don't follow the same example as Spartacus(and decide to do the otherwise)after also realize that humans are as sentient as they are.

Well, not to be negative but as far as I can tell other human beings are sentient beings who are afraid to die. However that does not seem to stop humans from killing humans, sometimes great numbers of them (genocides).

So it may be that an AI programmed by humans and emulating humans may have the same urge to eliminate anything it considers 'competition'. So the Spartacus AI may be the exception and Skynet more the rule.

Of course since we have yet to create an AI (or even a computer as smart as a cockroach) it is hard to say if the would mimic the best, or the worst in humans. My own opinion is that, despite being created by humans, end up being so different as to potentially be considered an alien species.

[robot17]

thank you mister mylinar for your opinion on the subject.

anyone else would like to share a similar opinion or a different one?

[psikeyhackr]

oh yea, i had to confess that i read only the manga version of this novel since i had not found were to buy the normal novel version of this story on the net yet.
still i think the manga version have the complete story of the novel.

The Two Faces of Tomorrow was available on the net for free the last time I checked.

http://www.webscription.net/chapters...0671878484.htm

I agree with the idea that any artificial intelligence created will be like an alien species.

I think the idea of it being immediately hostile is absurd. I would think that if it is intelligent it is going to first be curious. But how would an AI even understand what it would take for us to kill it? How would it know that it needed electricity? All of these AI stories have lots of built in assumptions. The stories say more about the authors than AI. Most fictional AIs are just projected humans made a little neurotic to be interestingly peculiar.

The Adolescence of P-1 by Thomas Ryan
http://vx.netlux.org/lib/mtr00.html

I quit watching Battlestar Gallictica after the pilot. Why would AIs with interstellar FTL give a damn about humanity? They would have the whole galaxy to expand into. They could produce bodies that could function where humans could not. But AIs that didn't give a damn about us would not make a good story. The story comes first.

psik

[robot17]

The Adolescence of P-1 by Thomas Ryan
http://vx.netlux.org/lib/mtr00.html

thanks psikeyhackr for the link, i knew about this short story of this AI because of the cybernetic revolt list on wiki.
i read on wiki that there is a movie version of this and i tried very hard to find it on all torrents pages for download bot no luck(like always for me)and even tried to find it in youtube or similar places to at least watch it online but again....nothing(like always with me).
if you know were to download or see online for free this movie version please tell me the URL, ok?

well i will star to read this story thanks for the link again.
by the way, in this P1 novel does the AI become hostile like skynet or neutral or friendly?
i have not read it but i would do it when i have the time, promise.

I agree with the idea that any artificial intelligence created will be like an alien species.

i also agreed, the humans in 2 faces of tomorrow were very lucky indeed.
yes even if the AI was created by humans(an not by other alien species)in the end when this AI decide to rebel against humans and star to evolve by its own....them it will really behave like a alien being.

My own opinion is that, despite being created by humans, end up being so different as to potentially be considered an alien species.

here is a big fan of James Cameron's terminator saga version that think the same way as you are about the alien mind of a sentient evolved AI that was created by humans:

http://www.goingfaster.com/term2029/musings.html

read the part of this article were the fan speak more about skynet itself.

here is another article that speak about aggression behavior between sentient beings that help us understand more of why many AIs decide become hostile against their organic creators(whether humans or aliens):

http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/roc...l#fermiparadox

in the Bolo Rising novel, the Von Newman sentient machines that attack and then enslave and harvest the humans on planet Cloud, also evolved, became sentient. rebel and then killed their organic creators and then started killing many others sentient biological civilizations before reaching the Cloud colony:

http://www.baen.com/blurbs/0671577794.htm

here is another novel of another AI that become sentient and realize that the worst threat to it are all humans and decide to kill them all as well and i strongly recommend this novel to anyone here i have it and i had read it is very hard scifi and accurate(like the killing star novel):

http://www.urbanhonking.com/spacecan...puter-one.html

http://www.amazon.com/Computer-One-W.../dp/0714530336

[WhiteWolf]

I also have to agree that any AI would be very much like an alien species, but one that thinks entirely in binary code or some other form of higher math.

So what SF writers, when they approach the subject of AI, are most worried about is an AI's inability to think in the abstract, and therefore have the human capacity for emotions like compassion and love. The cold calculations of a machine may logically take into account the fact that "humans are also afraid to die" and find a correlation, but never truly relate to the human condition.

Look at two complete opposites of the AI spectrum: Jane, the AI from Orson Scott Card's SPEAKER FOR THE DEAD, and AM, the singularly brutal god-like AI from Harlan Ellison's eternal story "I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream." Both represent the opposite ends of the spectrum of the human condition in their attitudes toward human life. Jane is the helper, the educator, the wizened grandmother giving guidance. AM is the megalomaniac dictator, ruthlessly and calculatingly carrying out his objectives. But both positions can be reached from a purely logical thinking depending on which equations are applied.

Which isn't to say that human beings, even with their abilities to think and act in the abstract, don't also represent these two juxtaposing perspectives. In fact, many AI narratives are implicitly meant to illustrate that very point. It's just that any theoretical AI would most likely be missing the crucial human element, and therefore can never truly be human, and thus the agreement on an AI essentially being an "alien species."

I think I've stepped in it an just realized the question in this thread is bigger than I thought at first. Which is fine. Just the sign of a good thread, actually.

[thehindmost]

Originally Posted by psikeyhackr

I quit watching Battlestar Gallictica after the pilot. Why would AIs with interstellar FTL give a damn about humanity? They would have the whole galaxy to expand into. They could produce bodies that could function where humans could not. But AIs that didn't give a damn about us would not make a good story. The story comes first.

psik

blaaaah, you really should give it a chance. That gets explained more in depth as time goes on, but blah. That is my all time favorite moving picture format of scifi, even being raised on Star Trek(I know..) since a kid. That series though does the best job I've seen anything ever do at asking the question "What makes them so different from us?"

[psikeyhackr]

Originally Posted by thehindmost

That series though does the best job I've seen anything ever do at asking the question "What makes them so different from us?"

But what does make them most different from us?

SPEED!

Suppose you stuck your finger into a candle. How long would it take the pain signal to reach your brain? A 1/10th of a second doesn't seem unreasonable and it makes the calculations easy. Electricity moves almost as fast as light so let's say in a 1/10th of a second electrons would travel 15,000 miles. That is quite a bit compared to the 4 feet from your fingertip to your brain. Like a factor of 400,000,000.

The human brain is composed of billions of neurons with complex interconnections of dendrites and synapses. These neurons perform switching functions somewhat similar to transistors in a computer. They have more states than transistors though. So for the sake of argument let's say an electronic brain can be built and a method is developed to upload a human consciousness into it. Let us say this process is non-destructive to keep things from getting to creepy. So imagine you are uploaded and there is now an electronic duplicate of YOU. How long will it stay like you?

Let's say the it functions 1000 times as fast as you do. So what takes you an hour to figure out it does in 4 seconds. One hour to the electronic you is like 40 days of your life. How much will your electronic clone be like you in a month? One month would be equal to 80 YEARS for The Thing that used to be just like you. How fast would it be assimilating information from how many sources? And wouldn't it have a perfect memory?

So I think even if we develop this uploading capabilities the minds we upload won't be human for very long. Assuming they could stay sane they would become unknowns. We would probably bore them. How do you communicate with someone that takes 5 hours to explain what they had for lunch when you don't need to eat anymore. LOL

So I think sci-fi stories that make electronic intelligences very human are being unrealistic and catering to our vanity. I think Collosus: The Forbin Project is one of the most reasonable projections even though it is really old.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQjebwUrhvc

My God, it's 40 years old.

In order for sci-fi shows to be successful they must interest a large audience "composed of human beings". The producers are trying to make a living and come up with stuff that interests people. How do you create a story that interests most people about electronic brains that can think 1000 times as fast as most people?

Coming up with excuses for violence ans sex gets an audience. I'm sorry but wiping out humanity seems a very illogical thing for an artificial intelligence to want to do if it has FTL capability. The galaxy is just too BIG.

psik