February BotM "HEROES DIE" by Matthew Woodring Stover

[Rob B]

With my fingers on the keyboard, some buried-alive instinct thumps within my chest: this is going to be a good discussion.
I take a deep breath and wait until February 1st

[Rob B]

Well it is February 1st time to start the official discussion.

Reading Heroes Die for the book club discussion was the second time I read the book, and as much as I loved the book the first time, I honor and cherish it even more now, after a second reading.

I was able to more appreciate Stover's style as well as the minor characters such as Duncan Michaelson. While he was on stage, he really made the most of it.

The dialogue scenes between Caine & Ma'elKoth were probably some of the best dialogue scenes I've ever read.

That's just a teaser for now, I'll wait to see what others have to say before I gush any more.

[DarthV]

I finished the book off last night, and overall I really liked it.

A nice amount of violence...vulgarity...and just a good cast of bad-assed motherf...errr know what I mean. Lots of plot twists and betrayals...some you could see coming and some you couldn't.

One interesting thing that made me think was that Caine wasn't any less effective in getting the job done by not killing people. Then again his whole rise to fame was based on that....and that's what Shanna couldn't stomach? But a lot of what he did accomplish doing it this way was also a result of his reputation.

I also felt like some of the themes were similar to The Running Man. Entertainment has control on what is delivered to the people... The Soapies didn't have a large role in the book, but hey, everyone can see a little 1984 big brother is watching type thing going on. The caste system was also interesting... it kept rigid lines of separation between the different classes of citizens in a global social engineering project. It was a good way to keep people in line, but the upcasting allowed for hope of the lower castes to better their family standing... be good little worker bees and maybe you can become something better.

[ChrisW]

Great book!

Can I make one small suggestion? Yes...ok.. well can I suggest that everyone who makes a comment rate the book using the rate this thread option thats at the bottom of the reply box. Oh and admins if it's not enabled on this forum do you tink you could.

[Rob B]

I think the thread rating thing is active, however I can't seem to rate the thread myself.

I think one of the most effective aspects of the book was how Stover switched from 1st person POV while Caine was in Overworld and a the third person narrative on Earth. It was a fairly simple tool or device to use in conveying how each handler can view the adventures, but with most things, the simple things are often most effective.

Regarding the whole Big Brother thing, yeah, there were definitely echoes of that and what really made this effective, was how plausibly the future was laid out.

[kater]

I have to disagree, I thought Stover created the central premise of the book and then evolved a world around that premise which would aid in the central focus of the narrative, plausibility would be one of the last words that came to mind.

[Rob B]

Originally posted by kater
I have to disagree, I thought Stover created the central premise of the book and then evolved a world around that premise which would aid in the central focus of the narrative, plausibility would be one of the last words that came to mind.

What did you see as the central premise?

I wasn't saying the future was the central premise or the starting point, I probably wrote it incorrectly. I meant the future world, as one of the aspects of the novel, was plausible.

[kater]

I know and thats what I was disagreeing with.
The central premise for me is an individual that has a dual personality that is expressed through the link between two worlds and how his life is lived out between the two. Both worlds are fitted to this dichotomy in order to convey Stover's, at times ott, preachy style and carry the narrative along smoothly without any glaring errors not as a plausible construct of a future Earth.

[Shehzad]

I felt that Caine is essentially a street "punk" who's restrained by society on one hand, and given the full opportunity to express himself via Overworld. As to what came first, the character or the world, its difficult to say. Caine would be certainly out of place in the real world while Hari Michaelson would not survive long on Overworld.

[Eventine]

Caine would be certainly out of place in the real world while Hari Michaelson would not survive long on Overworld.

Exactly. Whichis why when we see each displaying characteristics of the other, it shows the growth of Caine/Hari and their understanding that they don't have to be who they are perceived to be.


*Back from a 6 week holiday and raring to go*

[Shehzad]

I really liked that part of the growth of the characters: when Hari was prepared to drop his guard and become Caine for an instant: "I'll make you ****ing drown in it" while Caine exercised some Hari-like restraint-- this was less evident in HD than in BoT though.

[kater]

I thought BOT was clever because we got the reverse of the first, Hari is now Hari, he barely has the use of his legs and is in the sh!t, in order to overcome this he has to stop being two people and decide how its going to be, at which point Caine finally rears his head for good, issuing a big F*** you to all involved.

[Rob B]

I was enjoying how Caine would creep into Hari especially when he was dealing with Kollberg:

pg 314:

The rage drained out of Hari as though a scluice gate had opened in his heart, and Caine looked out from behind his eyes.

"Maybe I should just kill you. Maybe if I kill you, I'll get a better deal from the next chairman"

(p 316)
"Kollberg," Caine said, "I'm not gonna kill you. I'm not gonna kill you, because that wont hurt enough--"

Later on Overworld, after Hari and Duncan had spoke, Caine fights against using violence to solve his problems during his conversation with Ma'elKoth in the Brass Stadium.

Caine's internal dialogue pgs 419-420

Maybe I don't have to kill him.

Not only did he not have to kill Ma'elKoth here, he didn't have to kill him at all. That was a Caine pattern: when threatened, kil. But he could choose not to be a slave to his own past.

Which brings me to one of my thoughts of the book, which Eventine hit upon. Hari and Caine are the same person, just acting in thier percieved ways in seperate environments. A big part of the novel to me, is how Hari Michaelson and Caine resolve to be the same person despite their surroundings. Hari doesn't have to act completely like Caine when in Overworld and vice versa.

A bit down on page 420

Everyone thinks Caine is all of me; that's my edge.

The little bit that Duncan was in the book he was trying to show this to Hari, but Hari being the stubborn guy he is, it takes a while to settle in.

At the outset of the novel, Hari may be out of place on Overworld and vice versa, but as the character grows through the novel, this distinction is even less clear, if there at all.

[kater]

I think its a good point and the whole fact that the woman he loves has this love-hate relationship with Caine puts him off balance, effectively he is predominantly Caine but in order to please her he has to reverse this situation otherwise she can't accept him. It becomes ironic then that she also comes to suffer the dilemna when she is parted from the river.

[Rob B]

Good call Kater, about Pallas/Shanna and Chambaraya, I hadn't noted that.

Part of why Hari resolves his Caine aspect, and why he does virtually everything in the novel boils down to that good ol' four letter word:


LOVE