July Book: ACROSS THE NIGHTINGALE FLOOR

[Rob B]

July 1st, discussion open!

[Lani]

Well, I figured, we've got to have at least one post for Across the Nightingale Floor.

Well, I think the first noticeable thing about the book is that the setting in not medieval Europe-like world. I personally do not have a lot of experience with Orient, but the Japanese setting of the book really changed the atmosphere for me. I cannot say that I could destinguish authentic Japanese setting from a fake one, but this does not read as a European story for me.

This atmosphere that the book created really appealed to me really with its grace and beauty I would say. There is a different ettiquette, a different sort of ineraction between people. It is not something in particular that made me think that - something I could point out as a line in the book - but rather a sort of sense that comes over you.

Of course not everything in the book is neat and pretty. There are horrors of war and horrors of what is done with people, but still the sense of grace lingers somehow.

One think that striked me when I was about 3/4 through the book was that how ordinary the plot actually is. It is a boy, whose origin somewhat unknown, who develops a little too many powers during the book. Seems like something one read many, many times isn't it? It is and it isn't at the same time. Though most of the plots follows the quite typical progress, I was impressed by the "non-Hollywood" ending of the book. It was not something I expected from this plot and I was pleasantly surprised by it.

As for the characters, there were some better done and some that seemed worse off. I can't say that there was one character I would really enjoy reading about, but in general all the main characters were fairly well developed and interesting. They seemed quite authentic for their culture to me at least and I was satisfied with them.

In general, I really liked the book, and now I'm looking forward to the second book of the series which comes out this year. It's not brilliant, but definitely something worth reading.

[FicusFan]

Oh dear I hope it is more than us 2. I feel guilty I suggested it. But I did like it.

I was impressed with the writing style. I normally like books that are very meaty. This book is written in a very spare and elegant style, but it somehow leaves you feeling full. LH gave enough description for the setting, for the characters, for their relationships and their internal life. The story just flew by, and was as smooth as silk.

I also liked the Japanese setting. I do like stories set in the orient: I have read James Clavell's books set in Japan, and David Wingrove's SF Chinese series Chung Kuo. I have also started reading Laura Joh Rowland's series set in feudal Japan,The Sano Ichiro Series I am also working on Taiko a book set in 16th century Japan written by a Japanese author (I am reading a translation). ATNGF fits right in with all of them in terms of the feeling of being in the orient - at least in book terms.

In fact ATNGF made me think of Taiko as I was reading, because of the name the book and the character.

I liked that the Ninja's are magical in the story, and it was a totally unexpected twist that she subtly alluded to at the start (when he was so into roaming around the countryside). I liked the secret religion and the persecution aspect of the plot. I wonder if Lord Ototri is going to work into this part of the rest of the series.

I liked both the young characters Takeo and Kaede, and their mirror images Lord Otori, and his lady friend. My book is at home and I have spaced her name. I thought the descriptions of Kaede's life as a prisoner, and the meeting in the inns between Otori and his lady friend were wonderfully authentic. I felt that I was there.

I thought the plot twist and the deaths of those who I thought would be major characters in the series was shocking, and made it seem a less conventional story. I also thought the Ninja twist worked that way too.

I expected the story to be about Takeo trying to get justice for his murdered family and village, and trying to fit in as a noble in his new adopted family. I never expected the evil villain to die before the book was over, and I never expected him to leave his adopted family. And as I said the other deaths were shocking too. I suspect in the last book the noble family and his place in it will come back into play -- but who knows this could be a tragedy and they all end up drowning themselves.

I wonder what is going to happen in the second book when he is out being a ninja.

One thing that was odd was how LH told the reader through the narrative what bad things were going to happen before they did. I am not sure I liked it. But on the other hand it made the reading more intense because you wanted to scream at the characters -- don't do that.

Anyway I liked it, and I can't wait to start the next book : Grass For His Pillow. I have the ARC which I have had for most of June. I did not start it because I didn't want to give away stuff when posting here about this book. But I may have to give in soon

[Nimea]

Uh, I am tired, I want to read the book I am on at the moment - and I have to REALLY REALLY REALLY learn for my test next week . . .

But I felt the urge to write here for days and now I am giving in.

First off: I really wanted to read the book because the Japanese setting interested me. And I was not disappointed.

I felt many things that Lani and Ficus Fan already stated. But somehow this was not THE great reading experience . . . I got into the setting and atmosphere quite well and yet, there were passages where I thought it went to quickly. To flat - and yet not disturbingly bad.

Something that really made me think was the love story. Mmh, I really like romance and tragic love and fateful separation of the lovers - but again and again I wondered what made me suspicious of this love.
You know what: it was this love on first sight with all the "typical" symptoms on Kaede's side.
Don't understand me wrong. I am not against love on first sight. I even think that very scene was done wonderfully. Yet the details, the way it went on make me flinch whenever I remember them.
Difficult to describe.

Oh, and there is one passage that keeps my mind working as well:
"His affectionate words, his touch, mad the tears flow again. Beneath his hands I felt my body come back to life. He drew me back from the abyss and made me desire to live again. Afterwards, I slept deeply, and did not dream."

You could probably interpret it differently, but as there was a hint at 'homosexual activity' - ouch, sounds so cheesey - at the beginning as well ("had satisfied my own [desires] with other boys of my village") . . .
I am just wondering. Why, for example.
And I wonder if it fits Takeo's character, if it fits the romance, if it fits at all.
And don't understand me wrong: nothing against homosexual or bisexual characters! I just wonder if it fits the context of this novel?

Enlighten me with your thoughts on that matter, please.

Not to forget, my rating: three out of five points. It was and is not a waste of time and I definitely will read the next istallment, it was just not enough for me to give it more than a 'normal' rating.



Edited to add: I liked the cover art. I only have the Picador paperback which is not bad at all, but I also saw a hardcover version at a colleague's office, and that one is really good.

[Cygnus]

What a fortunate coincidence! I just picked this up at the library last week (the audiobook version) and have been avidly listening to it as I drive about. I've been neglecting the forums and I had no idea this was going to be the book of the month. Unfortunately, I'm not quite halfway through it, so I skipped over the previous posts, and won't have much to add until I've made it through.

I do think that it's a fantastic book so far. I've really tired of the formulaic fantasy (with an exception to Harry Potter), so I love anything that takes a different route. The characters are so interesting!

I think the Asian fantasy is becoming my new favorite type of book. I loved Barry Hughart's books and I'm about to start Years of Rice and Salt which seems to take place in China(?).

I'll be back to add my comments when I've finished.

[ChrisW]

Well I thought the book was pretty simple and there were a few things that bugged me. Can't remember what but I doubt I will be buying the remaining two books.

In conclusion a pretty average book and not worth wasting your money on unless you really wan't to read a sub par attempt of a Japanese setting.

[FicusFan]

Originally posted by Nimea

Oh, and there is one passage that keeps my mind working as well:
"His affectionate words, his touch, mad the tears flow again. Beneath his hands I felt my body come back to life. He drew me back from the abyss and made me desire to live again. Afterwards, I slept deeply, and did not dream."

You could probably interpret it differently, but as there was a hint at 'homosexual activity' - ouch, sounds so cheesey - at the beginning as well ("had satisfied my own [desires] with other boys of my village") . . .
I am just wondering. Why, for example.
And I wonder if it fits Takeo's character, if it fits the romance, if it fits at all.
And don't understand me wrong: nothing against homosexual or bisexual characters! I just wonder if it fits the context of this novel?

Enlighten me with your thoughts on that matter, please.

I can only tell you what I have read in other books set in Japan. They were all Set During the Past so this may no longer be the case, and they are mostly works of fiction, mostly written by westerners, so again they could be a completely wrong take on the past culture/history but:

Sex is not usually presented as a choice restricted to either 'male' or 'female' partners, but rather like a banquet and you take what you want and/or what is available (which can include children (mostly young boys) and animals). People do have preferences but don't expect to eat the same meal for the rest of their lives.

Most of the situations depicted in fiction are regarding noble or upper class, or rich people, and they can probably get away with things that are not acceptable for an average person. So I am not sure how widespread experimentation was, but culturally they were lacking some of the taboos that we have, because they don't have the same religious background.

Their outlook was also not unusual in the East (China, India ..) of the past anyway.

In their past they don't have a christian worldview which teaches that sex and the body are bad things, or that you can only do certain approved things with it. I don't know what their beliefs are in the modern times, because there has been a lot of cultural sharing; There is also some christianity there now. I also think that children are probably not 'ok' because of the whole 'child abuse' thing.

From the non-fiction I have read:

There were whole enclosed districts set up in the big cities, called the Willow World or the Floating World, which had Geisha (who were not prostitutes) and those we would call prostitutes. The different houses in a specific district would specialize. Often the poorer people would sell extra children (mostly girls) into prostitution. If they were very special they often would have a chance to become Geisha instead (they learn skills to entertain, and can, but are never required to sleep with anyone- and never for money, which doesn't mean they are free but you pay for the entertaining, and if you please the Geisha, as a mark of her favor she may sleep with you.). Men, but never women would visit these places frequently, alone or with friends. There was no shame or secretiveness about it, and married as well as single men would visit. Of course there was a terrible double standard between what a man could do, and what a proper woman could do.

Hope that helps

[FicusFan]

Nimea,

I just saw a post from you on another thread. You mentioned that you liked The Kushiel series by Jacqueline Carey.

I have read the first one, and have the other two but have not read them yet. Anyway the pleasure quarter that Phadre comes from is based on the Japanese Willow World (not particularly well done). Most of the her stuff, at least in the first novel is skewed historical fiction.

[Nimea]

Ficus Fan,

sorry, wanted to answer your post earlier. Somehow time just slips by . . .

First: thanks ver much. Very interesting!
Second: now I only would be interested in what you think about it in context of this story - without the historical background. Just within this story.
Third: "skewed historical fiction" Mmh, well, that's among the reasons I like it. She took what she liked and did it in her own way, not caring if it absolutely fits our own history but her intentions and the atmosphere. Without being illogical.
I am not very interested in historical fiction and usually I am thinking twice whether or not I will read an alternate Earth story.


Well, no more comments on this book?

[Lani]

I would agree with Nimea on the subject of Carey's world. When I read it I saw a lot of parallels in culture, history, even geography to our world. I don't think her world should be considered "bad" just because she used bits and pieces of ours to create her own pattern. Personally, I think she did a very good job out of it.

As for ANF, the quality of the world seems something we might want to consider since it seems not to be a fantasy world at all. Would a world that is so similar to ours with maybe one or two little things different be considered a separate fantasy world? Or should it be judged by how well she mimicked feudal age in Japan? To tell the truth, the book seems barely a fantasy because of its only magical manifestation in presence of The Tribe. If it wasn't present, do you think the book would be considered a historical fiction? Of course there is also the plot that I would say follows fantasy tradition, but then can a book without the fantasy world, creatures, and magic be considered fantasy?

[FicusFan]

Originally posted by Nimea
Ficus Fan,

sorry, wanted to answer your post earlier. Somehow time just slips by . . .

First: thanks ver much. Very interesting!
Second: now I only would be interested in what you think about it in context of this story - without the historical background. Just within this story.
Third: "skewed historical fiction" Mmh, well, that's among the reasons I like it. She took what she liked and did it in her own way, not caring if it absolutely fits our own history but her intentions and the atmosphere. Without being illogical.
I am not very interested in historical fiction and usually I am thinking twice whether or not I will read an alternate Earth story.


Well, no more comments on this book?

Nimea,

Thanks.

ANF:

I can't really give an opinion divorced from the background that I know. All I can say is that when I saw it I didn't think anything of it. I don't think it has any bearing on whether he likes girls, or that he was able to fall in love with Kaede. I just thought it was what they (young boys/men of the village) did if there were no girls around or interested in them. If in the future he finds himself in a similar situation and Kaede and he are not together he might do the same thing again. I wouldn't find it a big deal. He might even seek out a male because he is in love with Kaede and doesn't want to become involved with another woman.

KD:
When I said Skewed Historical Fiction I didn't mean it as a criticism. I meant that it was history that didn't match our world, it was adapted for fantasy. When I was reading it I was reminded of Guy Gavriel Kay's The Lions of al-Rassan, though it is not of the same quality.

Overall I liked the book, but less at the end than at the beginning. It seemed like it was going to be original and fabulous but it didn't hold up during the reading. The book was really two stories welded together. JC wrote herself into a corner very early on. She had Phadre too happy with her odd family (her master and the other pro, the young man), and work off her contract too quickly. There was no conflict, and without conflict you don't have a story. So JC's solution was to massacre Phadre's odd family -- I didn't like that at all. The second part was a standard quest/adventure journey, not very original at all.

I liked the characters and most of the setting, but I expected much more based on how it started.

My complaint about her not doing the Willow World well was because she probably wanted to have Phadre sold off to an outsider, rather than to a house that specialized in pain, which is the more realistic outcome. Most probably didn't see it as a mistake, but because I knew what it was based on, it bothered me.

ANF:

I can't really think of anyhting else

Odd how there is more to talk about often when you don't like the book.

[FicusFan]

Originally posted by Lani
I would agree with Nimea on the subject of Carey's world. When I read it I saw a lot of parallels in culture, history, even geography to our world. I don't think her world should be considered "bad" just because she used bits and pieces of ours to create her own pattern. Personally, I think she did a very good job out of it.

I never said it was bad, just skewed

Originally posted by Lani

As for ANF, the quality of the world seems something we might want to consider since it seems not to be a fantasy world at all. Would a world that is so similar to ours with maybe one or two little things different be considered a separate fantasy world? Or should it be judged by how well she mimicked feudal age in Japan? To tell the truth, the book seems barely a fantasy because of its only magical manifestation in presence of The Tribe. If it wasn't present, do you think the book would be considered a historical fiction? Of course there is also the plot that I would say follows fantasy tradition, but then can a book without the fantasy world, creatures, and magic be considered fantasy?

I think that the Tribe (Ninja's) are the main fantasy element. I wonder though if the hidden religion (possibly the historical incursion of christianity into Japan) will become more of a fantasy element in the rest of the series. It was the reason that Takeo's family and village was killed at the start of the book. The book also ended with religion -- when people were visting Lord Otori's grave and praying to him. I wonder if he will become part of the story again in ghost/spirit form. If the religion will become more important, stronger, and more active because of Takeo and Otori in the next two books. It seemed like Otori and others outside of the mountains practised it in secret.

Without the Tribe the book could have been seen as more HF than F, but it is not really meaty enough for HF. There isn't really a story to support HF. You have to set up the HF world and then do something with the characters. Possilby all three of LH's books would make one HF book. But even if all three were published as one HF book, it might still be shelved in SF&F, a lot of HF are at my local Barnes & Noble.

[ChrisW]

It was classed as literature in Australia on release but I think the Bookstores have woken up to it being fantasy now.

[Nimea]

Okay, where to start?
FicusFan, I almost guessed that you did not mean 'skewed' as bad. I just wanted to comment anyway.

My question about any more comments was meant for everyone. Just seems like more people read it than those that voiced their opinion about it here . . .

About Kushiel's Dart, even if it is off topic:
You think she killed her family off just because she needed conflict? Mmh, I do not see it like that.
It would not have worked if those two men lived on. Why? Because Phédre would always have stood in Anafiel's shadow. She would have stayed a pawn despite everything. This way she suddenly stood on her own and could grow much more.

And if you see Carey's whole concept you really can't critizise her selling Phédre off to an outsider instead of another house. For one thing, the houses are not all friends among themselves. And their members are treated just as slaves in parts, like the selling (Phédre comments on that in Kushiel's Avatar). Paying the most - and thus getting rid off someone you don't want - got her in the hands of an outsider. Apart from that, if you have just one flaw - and we know the prick in her eye was considered just that - you are not allowed to perform the 'usual work' in a house. They did not even think to sell her to another house, because of that flaw!

So, only wanted to offer that view on it.


Mmh, can't really decide as what Across the Nightingale Floor should be labeled.
The point about Christianity is interesting. In many reviews the Hidden are considered to be Christian-like. Could be, we will see.

And again back to the very first thing I asked about: Takeo's doings with other men.
I just still feel that it was strange. It doen't feel right within this story, the way it was told. Maybe it's just that I consider it weird myself for someone so terribly in love to go and have sex with someone else.
Lord Otori swore not to lay with another woman - okay, not with another man - and this part was missing in Takeo's love.
And okay, I like Phédre, a woman that constantly shares her bed with other men than her beloved Joscelyn, but there it was made part of the whole story in a way that even I - I am a very jealous person with a strict opinion what you can or should not do if you are in love/in a relationship - went along with it.
But there it is again, the critique about the love story between Kaede and Takeo . . .


Btw, I am really interested in what you did not like about the book, Caldazar. Please try to remember the things that bugged you!

[Lani]

I really amn't sure about the Hidden being Christianity basically because of the whole peace and not hurting concepts. Christianity seemed to spill a whole lot of blood during middle ages for me to see it as one of those peaceful religions...