September Book: Kushiel's Dart

[Shehzad]

I guess I nominated it, so I'll start off the discussion.

From the start, I was struck by the distinctive voice of Phedre no Delaunay. The opening chapter sets up the story beautifully, as is capped by a great line: "When Love cast me out, it was Cruelty who took pity on me." In a way it is one of the themes of the novel as a whole. Her status as an anguissette is set up during the slow build up.

Another thing that was a pleasant change from other fantasy novels is how well the novel is written. The writing in general is polished and flows well. The culture is carefully constructed and sets up a credible background.

More later.

[Nimea]

I don't have much time right now, so I will make a short comment as well - only to come back later.

I loved this book. I was hooked from the very first page and just like Shezad wrote, its Phedre's distinctive voice and how the book is written overall.

And JC makes me like France, that is quite a feat!
No really, the way she rebuilt our world as an alternate version and how she makes Terre d'Ange come alive is great. She handles that very well in the other two volumes as well . . .

And now I will go back to learning.

[Eventine]

OK.
I've been trying to get some time to post about this book, but struggled so far. I think I'll list things in point form at the moment and discuss further later.

Things I liked:
The obvious french medieval setting. At least it wasn't your typical english medieval setting.
The characters - I thought at first that Joscelin was going to be this cardboard cutout character, but JC managed to keep me respecting and admiring him.
Phedre was very interesting, mainly because of her aspirations and also her attitude towards herself.
The politics was interesting, although I found it a little hard to get into at first, mainly due to having to remember long names.
The religion was a nice variation - I liked the concept of a race descended from angels.
The cultural parallels. The map from the book is essentially a map of Europe, and each of the cultures draws upon those in the specific geographic locations.

Things that didn't sit so well with me:
The number of bisexual characters and characters into S&M. At first, this really grated with me ("Oh look, yet another person with information Phedre needs is into bondage!") but I began to accept it as a cultural thing, and it ceased to bother me (funnily enough, I just finished the second book and it's interesting to see other cultures views of the d'Angelines).

Melisande (or rather, Phedres reaction to her). I didn't get why Melisande had this power over Phedre that no one else did. Once again, reading the second book helped to explain this.

Some repetition - it just seemed a few statements got repeated unnecesarily. We know she heals quickly because she's one of Kushiel's chosen, no need to remind us every time she cops a lashing. Keep in mind that this feeling may have been compounded for me by reading the second book nearly straight after the first.

That's it for now.

[ChrisW]

I like the covers.

French eh? I never actually compared her world with ours culturally, just religiously. That stood out more to me.

[FicusFan]

I read this several years ago, and some of the stuff is a bit fuzy. Overall I liked the book, but less, and less as it went along.

The first part was interesting, though I felt that the author played a trick by doing the flawed, flawed, flawed bit and then having her master buy her for a discount and all of a sudden she wasn't flawed anymore. I felt it was a cheat. The idea that the professionals in the floating world (what the hell I will call it what it is, even if she didn't) wouldn't know it for the sign it was, especially the houses that specialized in pain, was not believable.I also thought she (JC) didn't spend enough time in the floating world (Japanese historical system of prostitution she is patterning it on).

Then Phaedre ends up working off her contract too quickly, and everyone seems happy. It was as if there was no conflict in the book. Then


WARNING - Possible spoiler!

JC kills off Phaedre's little family -- I hated that. Even if Phaedre had to go off alone, and the story needed conflict, there was no need to kill them.




End of possible spoiler!


In the second half of the book, it becomes a typical quest/journey type fantasy. I had just finished The Year of The Warrior by Lars Walker before reading this. It too was set in pre-christian Scandinavia - Norway specifically. It was much better done in terms of character and conflict, and dealing with an alien culture.

I liked Phaedre's boyfriend, I forget his name, but wonder what type of relationship they can really have. She needs pain to enjoy herself, and he can't provide that. What kind of relationship can you build when one partner is a prostitute ?

I was unclear why her childhood friend had to stay on the island. It didn't seem to be explained well enough, in terms of all possibilites. Finally I thought the female villian was pretty tame and weak, and her popping back up was totally expected.

I did like the quasi historical setting, it reminded me of Guy Gavriel Kay Light. I thought she did ok with the S&M - it was very mainstream (even though she did lift a scene from theThe Story of O ). I liked the characters and the writing, and will read the rest of the series.

[Lucky Joe]

Wow, another great book I would probably never have come across if it wasn't for the book club.

I really enjoyed this one. At first the whole S&M seemed like a brave move and I wasn't sure how I'd take to it, but it was done well and I didn't feel like the author had included that just for their own kicks - the way some seem too-




WARNING - Possible Spoilers!





I was a bit disappointed at the end though that Phedra would chose to return to the that life, having risen so high and yet choosing to go back to it. Maybe I just didn't buy the 'but this is what I am' line. Then again if she didn't go back to it there wouldn't have been anymore books so i guess it's not all bad.

I liked that Delauney and Alcuin were killed off half way through the book, it was totally unexpected and shows me that the author isn't frightened of changing the rules, having built something that works she's happy to turn it on its head for the sake of the story.







END OF POSSIBLE SPOILERS


Am looking forward to reading the next two.

[ChrisW]

but this is what I am' line.

It might become more clear and believable in the next two books for you.

[Rob B]

I read this a little over a year ago, well read most of it.

I too was struck by Carey's impressive writing skills. She spun a good story, and her skills at prose were above what I would expect from a debut novelist.

Phedre was an interesting character, I admired her tenacity, but at the same time, was a bit put off by her snobbishness.

The first half of the book was excellent, the dramatic tension was tight and thick, the character development of Phedra in particular was excellent.

Then I hit the halfway point. I found Jocelyn to be an extremely irritating character, who constantly whined, even moreso after the halfway point. Much of the dramatic tension was lost, Phedre's snobbishness began to grate on me even more as I continued to read the novel. I gave up about 3/4 into the book. I know I invested a lot of time into it, and to quit reading it at that point, shows how much I:
a) was annoyed by Jocelyn
b) lost all emotional attachment to the characters
and
C) simply did not care what happened in the story and to the characters.

It's rather unfortunate because, as I said, Carey held my attention rapt for the first half of the book.

Some may say the next two books in the saga are good, and perhaps better, I don't doubt that. However, I was so dissappointed in the second half of the first book I would be hard pressed to delve further into Phedre's world.

That having been said, should Carey attempt an entirely new world and a new set of characters, I would try it.

[FicusFan]

I find the whole question of Kushiel's Dart as Jacqueline Carey's writing debut to be very interesting. If you put her name into amazon you come up with about 5-6 non Kushiel, mainstream books written by a Jacqueline Carey. I agree her writing is very good, perhaps too good for a beginner.

Couple that with how the publishers market the books. For example Barbara Hambly has written 20-30 SF & F books but the first book in her mystery series, A Free Man of Color , which was her first mystery ever was touted as a debut.

I asked David Hartwell the question about whether the two Jacquelines were related, and he looked me in the eye and said 'She's pretty young.' implying she was too young to have written them, but clearly evading the question. I did see a picture of her in Locus and she looked young, but not sure how recent the picture was.

So where does all this lead: I like her writing but am skeptical that KD is her debut.

[Eventine]

was annoyed by Jocelyn

Interesting comment Fitz.

I couldn't understand Jocelyn's stance after he had slept with Phedre for the first time, and considered it an even greater strain on himself. i figured at this stage he should just go "Bugger it, I'm dammed anyway, I may as well have fun while I'm here".

Once again, it came down to me accepting something rather than understanding it for the story to go on for me. Maybe I shouldn't have to be donig this as a reader?

[Nimea]

FicusFan,
look here and here.
Two different Careys. Reading 'our' Careys 'News and Buzz' entries you might even find a comment.

And according to her bio 'our' Carey was born 1964 - not that young.

Oh, and why can a debut novel (mind, she wrote short stories, essays and a non-fiction book about angels before) not be written so well?
Why the doubts?

Apart from that: still have no time to properly post about the novel . . .

[ChrisW]

Heh even amazon gets them messed up. I just recieved a email from them about J Careys new book because I had purchased her books in the past. Wrong Carey though.

Spooky!

[Shehzad]

Whew. First day off in the last 10.

I too thought the first half of the book was exceptional. Although Joscelin indeed whined a little too much, I quite liked his character... perhaps a whiny version of Caine...?

Phedre, however, got a little too frantic towards the end. That was kind of a let-down, but by then I was already hooked.

[Eventine]

perhaps a whiny version of Caine...?

Hmm....He fights with daggers and kicks arse, but that's about where the similarity ends. I thought the same thing, but trust you to bring it up though

[Aoibheil]

It's been quite a while since I read this book, I bought it when it first came out, and I have since read the following two books. Personally I really liked the series. I thought Carey's world was both interesting and original.

As for some peoples comments that the prediliction for S & M in her books was rather unbelievable... only two of the 13 houses actually dealt in S & M, and it is made clear in the book that not everyone is into it (Jocelyne is not, for example).

As for Jocelyne being whiny, I actually thought Carey did a good job with him. After all, how would expect someone to react when he grew up being trained to be celibate and to live a rather disciplined and deprived life... and then for no reason he can understand he is sent to defend someone who embodies pretty much everything he thought was wrong. He was torn away from the life he wanted and forced into one he didn't... and then to make matters worse he finds himself attraced to Phedre and actually betrays his vows with her, forever banishing himself from the brotherhood that meant everything to him. All in all, I'd say he's entitled to be somewhat whiny, and that he wouldn't be as believable a character had he simply accepted it all stoically. Plus, in the next two books his character really develops, and he manages to come to terms with his life a little better.

I also really enjoyed the love/hate relationship Phedre had going with Melisandre. I thought that was definately a unique twist to the normal antagonist/protagonist relationship... that Phedre's enemy was someone that she was undeniably attracted to, and that that attraction was somehow beyond her power because Melisandre was a scion of the god/angel that had marked Phedre as his own. Definately a unique angle, imo.

I also thought Carey's writing style was very absorbing, and I quite enjoyed the way the world, politics, and mystery unfolded. And, to top it off, I liked how Carey ended the series....