January Book: Golden Compass/ Northern Lights

[FicusFan]

I will start again, since nobody else has. I read this book a while ago and enjoyed it very much. I will try to remember it:

I liked the animal daemon companions, I liked the description of time and place in terms of the university and the town. I felt like I was really in Oxford or Cambridge of a certain time. In fact I kept waiting to hear Jeremy Irons start narrating (from Brideshead Revisted).

I liked the mystery of the dust, and the plight of the armored bear.

I liked the main character, Lyra, and the boat gypsies.

I thought there was some weak spots: the witches weren't fleshed out well, the cowboy was a bit of a cliche, and Lyra's mother was too good to be true - so she gave me the shivers before she revealed herself, and I thought that Lyra should have been more suspicious. Her father was also a bit of a cliche the dark and silent type who is revealed as really sinister.

I have the next two books in the series and will eventually read them.

[Hobbit]

Yes, thanks for starting this off, Ficus.

One of the things that I liked about this was that (at least here in the UK) it was 'sold' as a YA book. Pullman is a very clever writer though and there are other things there. As the book progresses and the series it is clear to me that Pullman was not just writing for young adults.

One point that I realised after reading the first book was that Pullman has deliberately (to me, anyway) set out to write an 'anti-Narnia book' Where CS Lewis uses Narnia to promote certain values and attitudes, Pullman tends to show the opposite view. (This becomes much more obvious in the later books of the series, I think).

There are other less subtle points too - where Lewis has Aslan the Lion, Pullman has the bear, Lorek Byrnison.... the family values brought up to date by Pullman for the late 20th century... etc etc.
I really liked Pullman's sense of place in the book, too. It reads as an alternative England Victorian adventure novel to start with.

As an aside, I'm also going to give a thumbs up to the recent BBC dramatisation of the books in there series too. Terence Stamp is great as Lyra's father.

Hobbit

[fluffy bunny]

I read this one months ago rather than recently, and I've lent the book to someone else so forgive me if I'm a bit hazy with the details...

Really liked this one.

Pullman has an uncanny ability of being able to drip feed the reader bits of the story leaving him/her puzzling over the next piece of the puzzle. Each chapter (especially at the beginning of Northern Lights) manages to answer some of the questions, but the answers just dig you deeper and deeper into the mystery wondering what it's all leading up to.

The alethiometer's one of the best story telling devices I've seen in any story period.

Looking back at it, I do see what ficus is saying about the 'cliches' but they're pretty well disguised .

The ending's a bit weak IMHO:

Everyone thinks dust is bad, but it may be good so we'll stop them- sorry but that doesn't quite ring very clearly with me

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Last edited by fluffy bunny; December 30th, 2004 at 02:47 PM. Reason: now incorporating the new spoiler tags

[rune]

I thought this was the best book in His Dark Material series. I dont think the 2nd and 3rd come up to the promise of this first book.

I think the author was clever to have the storyline in Oxford, but with a different feel to it. At times I would forget I wasnt reading about the real Oxford

I did enjoy the relationships of the characters in this book, though it was a much younger tone that I would have liked. Once the journey was in the North Pole the pace picked up nicely and I enjoyed those parts very much.
I liked the idea of the daemon linked to a person, very novel

Unfortunately, for me, I found the next two books didnt keep the clever plot of this first, which was a real shame.

rune

[FicusFan]

Originally posted by Hobbit
One point that I realised after reading the first book was that Pullman has deliberately (to me, anyway) set out to write an 'anti-Narnia book' Where CS Lewis uses Narnia to promote certain values and attitudes, Pullman tends to show the opposite view. (This becomes much more obvious in the later books of the series, I think).


Hobbit

I felt there were probably parallels between the two authors - because GC has the feeling of being full of metaphors and symbols. I can't say definitely or specifically, because I have never read Lewis (though I have heard about how he used symbolism in his books to promote his religious views:catholicism).

I remember on another list a while ago we had a discussion about the book (because it was the read for the month) and there was something about the low key death of the child who escaped from the sanatorium - but the details escape me now.

[Eventine]

I really enjoyed this book.
Pullman does a good job of maintaining an involving plot while keeping it at a level that can be enjoyed by young and old alike. I enjoyed the concept of daemons, but for me the best part of the book was the very well realised almost-earth. The subtle differences that kept popping up kept me entertained, from the country of Texas through to the alternative Oxford.

I didn't pick up on any of the "anti-narnia" in this book (I don't think it's very obvious). The third books is where it becomes prominent.

I liked fluffy bunnys comment on how he drips you information - it definitely kept me reading the books as fast as I could. I actually panicked when I realised I wouldn't be able to get the second book for a few days.

As far as rune's comments on it being the best in the series, I actually enjoyed the second book the most. I liked how it increased the scope of the storyline, gave us another interesting protagonist and kept up the same breakneck speed.

[trentdick2882]

I loved The Golden Compass, actually just finished the entire trilogy recently. I don't really understand why people think the books are so anti-Christian.

I could understand saying anti-controlling organized religion, or anti-close mindedness, but I really didn't think anything in the novels was the opposite of the values represented by Christianity, so I wouldn't be able to agree with it being anti-Narnia.

I don't think that spoils anything, but feel free to beat me up if it does.

[Erfael]

I'll post some thoughts soon, but wanted to find out what the concensus was here: most people seem to have read the whole lot at some point or another. Are we free to discuss the trilogy, or should we stick to book 1 with others being heavily spoiler-warned?

[Nimea]

I haven't even started to read the book and am very far away from finishing the trilogy any time soon . . .


So, I hope you guys stay with discussing only the first volume - and that I will be able to join before the month is over . . .

[FicusFan]

Originally posted by Erfael
I'll post some thoughts soon, but wanted to find out what the concensus was here: most people seem to have read the whole lot at some point or another. Are we free to discuss the trilogy, or should we stick to book 1 with others being heavily spoiler-warned?

How about a compromise

I have often wondered if the follow up books to the book of the month read would also be worth discussing in the group. It seems that people, especially those who like the books, go on to read the rest of the series. Somehow having the discussion on the main forum tends to dilute the response.

I understand Nimea though, because I haven't read the following two books yet myself.

Erf, maybe you could start another thread in the book group forum to talk about the book's sequels - that way those of us who haven't read them won't be spoiled, or avoid the main discussion for fear of a spoiler, and you and others can still talk about the sequels.

[Hobbit]

Alternatively, you could talk about the other books in the series here, as long as you stick

POSSIBLE FUTURE SPOILERS
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END OF POSSIBLE FUTURE SPOILERS

in the post.


I hope this doesn't give it away too much, Trent, but here's some examples that i can remember for starters. Please remember though that my intention here is not for a religious debate, nor am I attacking or defending either viewpoint, though The last thing I'm trying to do here is a create a pro-Pullman, anti-Lewis rant - or vice versa! Pullman has also been a shock for many who have bought (or been bought) the books once they have read the latest Harry Potter and are looking for somone else! :


POSSIBLE SPOILERS


Lyra is from a dysfunctional family, with a father and a mother who don't exactly follow traditional Christian family values - nuclear family, loving and caring background, mother cares for children, etc etc. Here her mother is a career-driven abducter of children who tortures children, for example.

Indeed Lyra herself is not the morally upright citizen that the children of Narnia perhaps are - she fights, she steals, she shirks her work and studies when at Oxford, and yet we grow to like her.

Will kills someone.... and yet we like him.

Lorek is an antihero with issues - unlike the noble Aslan. He fights, he drinks (I think?). Aslan as I remember it fights when he has to. Lorek fights for revenge. Yet he is noble too.

Dust is seen as a threat to Christian beliefs.

The role of 'angels' and 'daemons' is greyer in Pullman's. Is it intentional that daemons/demons are seen in a sympathetic light, as an essential part of the person's being, as 'good guys' in the Pullman books? Don't think Lewis would say that, he'd be more in favour of the Angel's being more virtuous, I think.

Also the role of the Witches, who are given a much more sympathetic view, and rather sad I thought, compared with the evil Queen of Narnia.

And then there's the whole loss of innocence/Garden of Eden thing (much more prominent later), decline of religious values etc etcs. Here is a religious website's view on the whole series. (SPOILERS!) It also claims that Pullman is anti-Harry Potter as well!

There are others, but these are what I can think of to start with...

More are mentioned here and here and here too BUT THERE ARE SPOILERS - be careful!

END OF POSSIBLE SPOILERS

And Nimea, you can join in anytime...the threads are usually left open for that purpose.

Hobbit

[Nimea]

I know, Hobbit, but I like to join the discussion during the appointed month. Next month, next book . . .

And I like FicusFan's idea. Start another thread - otherwise (posting spoiler tags) it might lead the discussion here into another direction. That might not be good for those like me - that have not read all the books.

[ChrisW]

I did enjoy this book but I felt the characters a tad to shallow for my liking. It just got worse in the next two. That's all I can remember .

[fluffy bunny]

*Spoiler possibilities*


Didn't realise this but:

Curiously absent from Northern Lights are four words that are prevalent in most fantasy adventures: right, wrong, good, and evil.

On the last page of the book, Lyra and Pantalaimon recognize that they are still "one being; both of us are one." The expression resonates with a phrase from marriage ceremonies.


What did people think about the 'betrayal'? I have seen betrayal portyayed like this in other books, but not that many to be honest.

A few questions I found on other sites:

What is the relationship between "severing" and death? Is the author using this fantasy to explore the notion of psychic or moral death?

Why do you think the author stresses that Lyra is not an imaginative child? Why would "imagination" be dangerous to her? How would it affect her understanding of the alethiometer? Is Lyra a truth-seeker? Who is Lyra Belacqua and/or what does she symbolize?

[rune]

Originally posted by fluffy bunny
*Spoiler possibilities*





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On the last page of the book, Lyra and Pantalaimon recognize that they are still "one being; both of us are one." The expression resonates with a phrase from marriage ceremonies.

I didnt look too deeply into this phrase, perhaps some readers try and see more than there actually is

What is the relationship between "severing" and death? Is the author using this fantasy to explore the notion of psychic or moral death?

I did find this part of the plot interesting. Quite a mature subject in the plot. One of the few.

Why do you think the author stresses that Lyra is not an imaginative child? Why would "imagination" be dangerous to her? How would it affect her understanding of the alethiometer? Is Lyra a truth-seeker? Who is Lyra Belacqua and/or what does she symbolize?

This was one of the things that spoiled the story a bit for me. It seemed so unnecessary to keep repeating some of Lyra's characteristics. And lets be honest an uniminative character isn't half as interesting. I didnt link it to her use of the Alethiometer, in fact I thought that ability was one of her best and lifted the character.

rune