February BOTM: Talion: Revenant

[Shehzad]

Let the discussion begin...

[Sammie]

Oh god - haven't been keeping up with this at all lately, but seeing as it's THIS one - shall grab a copy asap!!!

[ChrisW]

I got Fortress Draconis, does that count?

[Shehzad]

Come ON people.... join in...

[Erfael]

Working on it, Shehzad. Read it, but haven't had sufficient time to post yet. Give me three more days, and I'll definitely get it in there somewhere.

[Nimea]

Am ill, with fever and a bad cough that hurts like hell. Stayed in my bed for the last three days and could not read even one page of anything because my head and my eyes hurt . . .

But the month has still some days left, he?

Sorry for the OT; just had to express my frustration.

[alan empty]

I'm on page 70 - I'll come back when I've finished.

I'm enjoying it so far.

[Shehzad]

Am rereading it currently.

Going through it once again, I love how Stackpole alternates the story of how Nolan became a Talion with his current mission. It's an interesting tactic which explains a lot of what's going through Nolan's mind, and brings Nolan more to life.

[FicusFan]

I am reading it, about half way through I think. I feel like I have been reading it forever. It is one of those books that the end can't come soon enough.

Not sure what the problem is. I like the Idea of the Talions, and the Justices - but the reading is like slogging. The story of young Nolan seems to be a continous story, but the first part of Nolan the Justice reads like one of the old episodic westerns that were on TV when I was growing up - Have Gun Will Travel comes to mind.

Very one dimensional good guys and bad guys, evil and tragedy, thrills and tears -- all made right by the end of the episode or the chapter. It is a very plastic feeling I get from the story of Nolan chasing Moari. And talk about including useless details that don't imrpove the story. I feel like I am drowning - as though to the author all events and items are equally important.

I am at the point where Nolan is going undercover to protect the king and I hope the story starts to behave like 'Young Nolan' in structure - a continous thread. Unless the book picks up dramatically I can't see myself reading anymore Stackpole books.

[Erfael]

Okay, made it through another week. And now for some thoughts on Talion.


I thought Stackpole brushed up against a few really nice ideas here, but only slightly. I think he lost them somewhere in "I-used-to-write-for-gaming-companies" Hell.

I really liked the ideas of Talions and especially the different kinds of Justices. I think he presented several different views of Justices, which he could have used to really explore authority and control. The differences between Ring and Nolan were interesting as were the descriptions of different factions within the Talions which held differing views on how things should be dealt with in the outside world.

However...it didn't seem like he was really interested in dealing with any of this. He seemed to structure his chapters around nothing so trivial as character development or plot advancement, but "adventures." I think, Ficus, this is what gets so terribly tedious about the first half of the book, especially. Every single chapter seems structured around some fight or challenge that the hero has to face, and none of them are any more or less important than any others. Either it's a fight with some ruffian or the Fifteens or a series of tests that needs to be beaten.

No matter what it is, you can almost read right through to the RPG conventions that he's using in each situation. In the test to become a Talion, it's evident where he was thinking, "Here, our hero passes his perception check to see into the woods to the flag. And here our hero passes his wisdom check to realize he's jumping into a pit and then passes his dexterity check to save himself from falling in." I found that it got extremely tiresome.

That said, the flow got a lot better toward the end. There was a stretch for a few chapters in a row with no "challenge," and all of a sudden for that time it was an enjoyable read.

I did think that it was a little stretched to try and tie in young Nolan with old Nolan. There just didn't seem to be enough connections between their two stories until the very end. And then those ties seemed like he could have tied them in in a much more convincing way, and explored Talion society much more in the process.

All in all, I would have rather been reading something else. It had far too much of a DnD book feel for my tastes.

[Nimea]

Originally posted by Erfael

I think he lost them somewhere in "I-used-to-write-for-gaming-companies" Hell.

Still have not read it, but can't resist:

Talion is Stackpole's very first novel, so he says in an afterword (in my version of the book). So no writing for RPGs before that appart from adventures and sourcebooks maybe.

[Shehzad]

That's correct: Talion was Stackpole's first book.

[FicusFan]

Originally posted by Erfael
That said, the flow got a lot better toward the end. There was a stretch for a few chapters in a row with no "challenge," and all of a sudden for that time it was an enjoyable read.

I did think that it was a little stretched to try and tie in young Nolan with old Nolan. There just didn't seem to be enough connections between their two stories until the very end. And then those ties seemed like he could have tied them in in a much more convincing way, and explored Talion society much more in the process.

All in all, I would have rather been reading something else. It had far too much of a DnD book feel for my tastes.

I am getting there and do find the later chapters of old Nolan to be less plastic. However he still seems to be the perfect ken-doll hero, and his seeming about face from vengeful rebel to awe-inspired subject of the (perfect - so far) enemy king is leaving a bad taste in my mouth. Not to mention the beautful princess and where that seems to be heading.

I liked the Lizard burrow and Wolf the horse. I am wondering if the leopard is going to grow up to become his faithful animal side-kick.

Its just all too perfect -- like a child's fairy tale.

In terms of the two stories intertwining. I actually didn't mind the young Nolan parts, but I found it jarring to pick up with the next chapter after an intervening chapter that had no relationship to it. I would lose the thread of old Nolan, and not really remember who young Nolan was (in terms of how far he had come on his journey to become an adult and a Talion) and where he was, and what was happening in relation to where he was in the last chapter.

I have never done D&D so I can't say it reminds me of that, but it is very cliched and programmed in places.

[Erfael]

Yes, I unerstand it was his first novel, but it looked to me from reading his bio that he had spent time writing fiction for game worlds or systems for a time before that. And it's the adventure/sourcebook feel that I think gets all over this particular novel.

Maybe something else that gets me a little with it is that I think this could be a REALLY good book, but instead it's only passable. Many of the decisions he makes are not really fleshed out. I feel that either Nolan is pretty shallow, or I'm just not being given a good look at his inner workings, which is fairly inexcusable for a first person book.

Many of his major decisions may be the right ones, but I was very seldom left with the feeling that I really know why it is that Nolan makes the decisions he does.

[FicusFan]

Ok I finally finished the book. The ending had more of a surprise than I expected, and the story-book romance was avoided, so that was good.

I am left though wondering about how the person at the end (who turned into the suprise bad-guy) was able to live as a justice and go through the SHAR ritual which was supposed to measure what you did against what you stood for the first time the skull took your measure. (not sure that is a good thing - it means you can't grow and change. Who wants to live their whole lives being held up to what a 17 or 18 year old thinks is imporant) Surely the skull would have noticed a problem, even if the person invovled didn't think of themselves badly - it would see what had happened and make the appropriate comparisons and decisions. Don't mean to be vague but I am trying not to give away spoilers.

I also am not really sure I understand the whole soul thing. I am not sure that I get what the problem was at the end, how it worked, and how the same souls that seemed to be a problem could then be used for healing.

I am glad the book is over, it wasn't the worst I have read, but it was a chore rather than enjoyable.