February 05 BOTM: Veniss Underground by Jeff VanderMeer

[Nimea]

3...2...1...discuss!


Well, I haven't finished it yet, am still in Nicola's part. But I think it is very interesting - then again, could be I am finding a lot of books at least interesting.

But a question: who of you got the Tor UK mass market paperback with 'Balzac's War' in it?

[Eventine]

OK, I first read this book about 4 - 5 months ago and had this to say when I first read it:

Wow. Jeff Vandermeer has to have one of the most original imaginations going around in fantasy today. This book is emotional, vivid and disturbing all wrapped into one smouldering bundle of originality. Jeff Vandermeer is now on my "buy this author now" list. I don't recall ever seeing a fantasy author use the second person within a novel, let alone pull it off as well as this.
I think this book also worked well for me having read Beauty recently - Beauty discusses the loss of beauty from the world and the end of the human race - Vennis Underground shows what the human race could become if it continued without Beauty.

I'm going to start my re-read this evening, but to expand upon my above comments I'd like to mention that the second-person delivery of Nicola's section of the book works very well when you consider how Shadrach finds her and saves her in the third act. I'd also like to mention Vandermeer's scope of imagination - things are twisted enough in Veniss proper (I mean, Meerkats? Really?) but as Shadrach descends through the various levels things grow more disturbing and more fantastical - almost like an Alice in Wonderland on acid.
I remember putting this book down and thinking "how does he come up with this stuff?".

I'll comment some more on plot/stlye as I continue to read the book again.

I've got whatever edition was released in Australia as a TPB (so I'm guessing it was the same as the UK) but no 'Balzac's War' unfortunately.

[Eventine]

I've also sent Jeff an email asking if he'd like to come and discuss with us - it worked really well last month with Kirsten Bishop so hopefully he can drop in.

[mistri]

I haven't forgotten about the book - just started reading it tonight. I'm impressed so far. Initially I was worried that it might be too literary for me (I have an (meaningless) English degree and have edited books, but for some reason I don't get on with a lot of literary stuff), but I found the character's voices just pulled me into it.

I'm only in Nicola's part at the moment, so won't read too much more of the thread until I've finished the book. It's good to see someone writing second person perspective without it feeling like it's only being done for gimmick purposes. I feel it works quite well here.

[JeffVan]

Hello, Jeff VanderMeer here. I'm thrilled that you've chosen my book for your book club discussion. I'd encourage full disclosure--which is to say, I'm not going to bite if you don't like something about the book, and prefer honest discussion. I'll be happy to answer any questions you might have, or just shoot the breeze.

Best,

Jeff

[JeffVan]

Er, my last post might have been premature, since I just realize Ben suggested I drop by later in the month, after people have read the book. I'll stop by again tomorrow, though, in case anyone wants to ask about something general and that won't give away any plot points for those still reading.
JV

[AuntiePam]

I won't be starting it for a couple of days. Just popping in to say it's great that Mr. VanderMeer will be around for some of the discussion.

[Eventine]

Thanks for stopping by Jeff.

It's a pretty quick read (at least it was for me - I did it in nearly one sitting), so it shouldn't take long for most to catch up.

In the mean time I've a question:

Did you decide you wanted to do a story from various perspectives and wrote Veniss Underground with that in mind, or was it more of a hybrid where you had the idea for the novel and then realised that the varying perspectives could be used to good effect?

Cheers,
Ben

[JeffVan]

Thanks for the great question. (I'm waiting around for Locus Online to go ahead and post my best of the year article so I can blog something it, but...still waiting...so have some time...)

The novel came together over a long period of time--several years, broken up by other projects. I had a lot of time to experiment with voices, to see what worked best for the characters.

I can't answer the question completely until everyone's read it, because there's a reason for the first and second person that might be considered giving away a plot point, although not all readers notice it.

But I was, from day, searching for a way to differentiate between the voices of each character. And I knew that I wanted to write from all three characters' perspective because as the story moves along the stakes change. The very basic writing advice of "Write the story from the point of view of the person who has the most to lose" was on my mind. So each section is narrated by the person who, literally, has the most to lose (whether they know it or not).

So I spent a lot of time thinking about how best to display or portray each character. And it was kind of a combination of trial and error on the technique side, and things just organically coming together.

There are good reasons for Nick's section to be both in first person and short--because his voice is somewhat annoying and he's very much self-centered, so "I" made sense. It was very tough to pull off something that sounds like it's written by someone with some talent, but not enough talent, if you know what I mean, since he's a *failed* artist and wordsmith.

With Nicola's section, I tried it in third person. I tried it in first person. And neither way worked. I mean, I just couldn't get into the character's head. Then, when I tried second person, it clicked. Second person can be very, very annoying if used incorrectly. I use it rarely myself, and only when feels right on an organic level. But if you use it right, it can make the reader feel like he or she is either staring right over the character's shoulder or is even closer in than that--once they get over their aversion to the technique, since it's not encountered that often, and thus unfamiliar. I've used second person three or four times, and each time it's because something has clicked using it. The trick with second person is, make sure you don't do a lot of short "you did this" "you did that" sentences--the same trap you find in first person where too many authors just go "I did this. I did that. I did the other." And the sentence structure gets really, really boring.

With the third section, Shadrach is very much action oriented and narrowly focused and yet emotional distraught. I thought if that section was in first person it would be incoherent because of Shadrach's emotional state. And second person was too dreamlike for Shadrach. Not to mention, I think Nicola's section is as long as you can go in second person without it getting tiresome no matter how well you pull it off. And since Shadrach's section is so long, I didn't think it would work well. (There's also the nice symmetry of first section first person, second section second person, third section third person.)

There are a few other reasons, but I'd rather get into them after people have all read the novel.

Hope that answers your question.

Jeff

[FicusFan]

Nimea, I have the Tor UK Trade. Don't know if it has that in it or not. I read the book several months ago. I will have to look for it.

JeffVan, glad to see you have come by for a visit. It is always cool to hear what the author was thinking and trying to do with the book.

I really loved it. It was interesting, and worked so well with both mind and emotions. It seemed that you blended SF, Fantasy and Horror - and it all worked together. It also left you thinking and mulling when the book was done. I was amazed at how well you did everything, and in such a short book. It was incredibly refreshing after slogging through some of the other not-new-weird ( I can be on both sides of the fence ) stuff that takes hundreds of pages to achieve what you did in much less time and space. Bravo.

[Rocket Sheep]

I have Balzac's War in mine. I thought that was a great read hot on the tail of Veniss Underground. I liked knowing more than the characters.

I had to review the book for a mag, so I don't know if I should discuss very much until after the mag publishes my review. Not that most people here will get to read it anyway.

I think being around a lot of hot new writers here downunder, it made less of an impact on me than say readers who only read published American writers. It was great to see Tor going for a blend of genres tho... they told us they hated that... which was immensely disappointing cause Aussies love to genre blend and we hate the size of the Aussie market.

So, inspirational to see something new out there doing well in a big market.

[JeffVan]

It's natural to feel an affinity for the writers from your native country, of course. You're clued in to their cultural influences more, for one thing.

Speaking of Aussie writers, K.J. Bishop is a great one--and a great friend of mine. I also like Margo Lanagan, although I think she's getting a bit overhyped in the U.S at the moment. Which is okay--happens to the best of us--but creates an unrealistic expectation with reviewers, and could backfire on her a bit (just from a PR point of view). Kim Westwood is a short story writer I think will blossom in the next few years. Also, Anna Tambour is an amazing writer who has a novel out this year. Geoffrey Maloney remains a favorite of mine, too. It does seem, though, that the recent explosion of Aussie speculative fiction writers consists most of women. I wonder why that is...or if I'm mistaken.

"Balzac's War" is in the Tor UK mass market paperback edition. I made the decision to offer that to Tor UK for the mass market paperback edition because it's one of my favorite pieces from my US/Canada short story collection Secret Life, which doesn't have much distribution in the British Commonwealth. I wanted to get it a wider audience.

Jeff

[Erfael]

Hi Jeff,

I won't repost "The Compleat Saga of Erfael Trys to Acquire His Very Own Copy of Veniss Undergroud" here, as it's already in the February voting thread, but I will mention that I am on backorder from Barnes and Noble and have been for weeks, no good prospects at Amazon getting it in a reasonable time, my local indie store said that they basically can't get it in any sort of reasonable time and may have to charge more than cover price for it ,and have never seen one of your books at a brick and mortar store here in the US.

I have read the short version of City of Saints etc. and loved it. I have been trying to get Veniss nominated and voted for here in the forum along with Eventine and a few others for some time now so as to encourage me to get a copy (limited budget for books). So now the time has finally come and I find myself without a book. (brace yourself....this all leads to something.)

By all reports, your books are great, as was my experience with City of Saints etc. So why is it they're so darned hard to come by? Why can I walk into a store and get 12 feet of Robert Jordan, 10 feet of Eddings, 3 miles of Wizards of the Coast, and not one Vandermeer?

I know the simple answer (the industry answer that KatG would give), but I'm interested in your take on the industry and what you think about that situation.

BTW, really, really, really looking forward to reading the book, should it ever arrive.

[JeffVan]

If you want to do a trade, I'll send you Veniss for something I need from Australia. Email me if interested.

The short and long of it is that although I've been a published professional writer for over 15 years, it wasn't until 2003 that I got a contract with a major publisher. All of my books before that came out from independent presses. So, in the eyes of most readers worldwide, especially outside of the U.S., and in the eyes of booksellers, I'm a newbie.

What I am finding is that the book is available in most chain bookstores, and that many, many independents and some individual chain stores have gone out of their way to feature my work. It's unlikely that I'll ever be as popular as a Robert Jordan because I'm not the kind of writer who is interested in (1) repeating myself or (2) writing for the marketplace. This doesn't mean I don't respect my readers, but the thing I've learned over the last 15 years is that if you're true to yourself as a writer, and to your vision, that readers respect that more, and it also means more when you do become successful, than if you tried to write what you think the marketplace wants.

I'm trying to do my bit by traveling as much as possible to meet readers, talk to bookstore managers, etc. In fact, I've accepted an invite to teach and participate in the Brisbane Writers Festival in Sept-Oct. I'll be flying into Cairns to do a workshop there, then over to Brisbane, and end up in Sydney, where I hope to do some bookstore signings and readings.

Jeff

[JeffVan]

I'm sorry--for some reason since one of the moderators is in Australia, I just thought this was mostly Aussies. You're talking about US brick-and-mortar stores.

My first book from a large publisher in the US hasn't come out yet--Bantam Books has picked up Veniss Underground and City of Saints for release in late 2005 and 2006. Tor Books has bought the new novel. So soon they will be available everywhere in the US in brick-and-mortar stores. And the fake disease guide I co-edited will be out in the US from Bantam in April.

My nonfiction collection is in every Barnes & Noble in the US, although it's selling briskly and each store probably only took two copies, so...

Jeff