Discussion of fantasy/literature divide and levels of Brow-ness

How about this view (not my own):
Literature = art to help us understand our world
Escapism= art to help us ignore our world

...with the most extreme forms of escapism offering a vicarious experience or wish-fulfilment fantasy (term not used in the genre sense) to the consumer. Both literature and escapism can be entertaining, although probably for different reasons.

I've been thinking about this one for a while now. Well, at least since Eventine posted it. I think I have managed to successfully congeal some thoughts which may be ready for the press mold of articulation.

Whether people see it as literature, or escapism, they are, in fact, seeing the same thing all while being unaware they see the same thing. Literature as art, whether its escapist or otherwise, is a distillation of life into more manageable, digestable units for consumption. Life can be very complex, and so we need an escape - which is then a form of literature that gives us simplified life which we can gorge upon. Life can be terribly dull, boring and tedious, and so we need to be inspired - which is then a form of literary art that grants us life emblazoned with rich and noble light.

I'm still not sure if I am communicating my thoughts/sensations on the matter as I'm personally encountering them.
 
Or indeed, 'successfully congeal'. :D

Mark
 
At least when Friday night rolls around looks like I'll have me a date, one way or another. :D
 
I don't have the time to read through all the back post, so I'll jump probably to somewhere in the middle where Ursula K LeGuin was mentioned and where she said that in the begginning all stories were fantasy stories, and genre stories are the very first we are exposed to as little kids when we don't absorb them at the conscious / intellectual level: we are tricked by the adventures and the wonderful exotic lands. So even as adults we are probably still susceptible to get more from an epic than escapist entertainment. The whole discussion of high brow and low brow is for me just a question of the talent of the writer to tell his story. I recently read To kill a Mockinbird, not a fantasy, but I mention it here because the language is as straightforward as it gets coming from the POV of a kid, yet it is one of the wealthiest books in term of content.

Coming back to LeGuin, I'm reading now Charles de Lint and I've come across a passage that was inspired probably by her essay and is tangential to our discussion here:
People who’ve never read fairy tales, the professor said, have a harder time coping in life than the people who have. They don’t have access to all the lessons that can be learned from the journeys through the dark woods and the kindness of strangers treated decently, the knowledge that can be gained from the company and example of Donkeyskins and cats wearing boots and steadfast tin soldiers. I’m not talking about in-your-face lessons, but more subtle ones. The kind that seep up from your sub¬conscious and give you moral and humane structures for your life. That teach you how to prevail, and trust. And maybe even love.
 
I don't have the time to read through all the back post, so I'll jump probably to somewhere in the middle where Ursula K LeGuin was mentioned and where she said that in the begginning all stories were fantasy stories, and genre stories are the very first we are exposed to as little kids when we don't absorb them at the conscious / intellectual level: we are tricked by the adventures and the wonderful exotic lands. So even as adults we are probably still susceptible to get more from an epic than escapist entertainment. The whole discussion of high brow and low brow is for me just a question of the talent of the writer to tell his story. I recently read To kill a Mockinbird, not a fantasy, but I mention it here because the language is as straightforward as it gets coming from the POV of a kid, yet it is one of the wealthiest books in term of content.

Coming back to LeGuin, I'm reading now Charles de Lint and I've come across a passage that was inspired probably by her essay and is tangential to our discussion here:
People who’ve never read fairy tales, the professor said, have a harder time coping in life than the people who have. They don’t have access to all the lessons that can be learned from the journeys through the dark woods and the kindness of strangers treated decently, the knowledge that can be gained from the company and example of Donkeyskins and cats wearing boots and steadfast tin soldiers. I’m not talking about in-your-face lessons, but more subtle ones. The kind that seep up from your sub¬conscious and give you moral and humane structures for your life. That teach you how to prevail, and trust. And maybe even love.



That's well and fine for a child, a child needs those type of narrative structures that provide a grander sense of self, that spur imagination and confidence, and kindle deeper emotions... but as with anything, too much of a good thing can be harmful.

You mention To Kill a Mockingbird, which isn't exactly fantasy, actually it springs from an altogether different subgenre-- Southern Gothic, and is one of my all time favorite books. Another Southern Gothic story is Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil by John Berendt... these books blow away most any fantasy you will ever read. Both novels are as close to nonfiction true crime as it gets without crossing the line. If you read books like these I would argue you will be a better person for it. If the bulk of your reading is epic fantasy than I suspect at some point you lose the ability to even appreciate literate, worthwhile stories.
It's equally important to read well grounded fiction/nonfiction that's grand in its smallness, powerful in ways epic fantasy can never be.
 
Unfortunately, some people seem to take pride in their stunted emotional state.

I love Sherlock Holmes stories.
I've read all of Doyle's creations, many of the pastiches fashioned by other writers, and more recently watched the 2009 movie with Robert Downey Jr and Jude Law which turned them into hip crime fighters... honestly, most of it isn't very good and only a few works even worth mentioning. But I've also read Michael Chabon's The Final Solution, and that my friend is literature and well worth spending time with.

Michael Chabon is highbrow, he can turn well-worn tropes into literature and I would be lucky if I could get one-in-ten people on this forum to even consider reading him.

I think if we're talking about classics then it should be more than the influential impact a book has on other writers and how many copies were sold.

I have read The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Clay ...does that count?
 
I've only read The Yiddish Policemen's Union - and as I recall from the discussions here when it came out, so have a lot of people on the forum - but from that alone Chabon appears to be a decent writer. A bit overrated (from that book alone, which appears to not be considered his best, despite its awards), but he's got some great use of language going on and a playful sense of humour when it kicks in. I have Kavalier and Clay on the to-read pile.

That novel was in absolutely in no way, shape or form a 'highbrow' book though. When people use that (in itself dubious) word, I'm left thinking of the likes of James Joyce. Chabon isn't exactly batting at that level.
 
grand in its smallness
I like that quote. It resonates with something in me that I encounter that "personal" quality, where you can identify with some quality of a character (either seeing it in yourself or others). I tend to find this reading novels that don't have a secondary world milieu - I think it's a lot harder to identify with some muscle strapped guy with a sword than it is with a character from say a Graham Joyce book.
(Note: this isn't a high brow/low brow statement, just me discussing what I personally find more compelling in terms of characterisation)
 
Graham Joyce is definitely a writer worth mentioning. The Silent Land and The Tooth Fairy are both outstanding. I keep meaning to check out Memoirs of a Master Forger as well.
 
While talking about Joyce, I found Requiem to be one of the most amazing books I've read.
 
In reading through this thread, I could not help but to think of this recent review. Note the language employed in the final half of this so-called review (yes, I think the actual review is full of it). Does the terminology employed here represent a certain strident, perhaps "low-brow" opinion of a different type of writing?

Pretty much, yes. What I find more interesting than how people reiterate certain stances on literature and its sub-genres is the language utilized to make those points. For some readers, attention to language, that "fine writing," becomes not a positive attribute but instead a thinly-veiled pejorative. "We won't have any of that in our reading pool, thank you very much!" When this is followed by the references to "arty" and "academic," one might wonder if the person's opinion has been developed or if rather it had been received.

Style is everything when writing a narrative. There is no one set "perfect style"; each writer ought to craft the style in order to tell the story in the best possible fashion. I would hope most here would agree with that at least, even if we might have strong differences of opinion on what constitutes "best possible fashion."

Another interesting facet of this particular debate is the implied use of THEY. "THEY think this..." or "THEY look down upon..." or "THEY don't know their rear ends from a hole in the ground..." THEY in debates is rather limiting, as it deprives any argument of a strong, active adversarial point; it's all generalized and nearly devoid of actual humanity. Whenever I see the "academics" or "elites" synonym for THEY, I find myself tuning out, wondering if the person realizes that they are writing a screed rather than having an argument. I wonder what would happen if, for example, a Brian Evenson were to be asked to weigh in on certain matters here. Not familiar with him? Look into what he does and what he has written and see if he ever falls nicely into a THEY category. Or how about Karen Russell, whose first novel, Swamplandia!, was just published back in February. Ever see her influences cited in last year's "20 under 40" feature in The New Yorker?

There are times and places for particular stories. While not my favorite sub-genre, I have derived quite a bit of enjoyment from reading several epic fantasies. I also happen to think that several that some enjoy are just utter dreck. Same goes for my opinion of certain writers in other fields. I am a huge fan of Roberto Bolaño's writing but think Coelho's writing is garbage (while also understanding why it appeals to so many). In some contexts, I guess I would be a "high brow" reader/reviewer, while in others I'd show some inclination toward some "low brow" material. It's not a static, sharp divide here. Those who choose to think in such terms I believe are doing themselves a disfavor, particularly if they choose to not open one's self to a variety of storytelling forms and narratives.

And to think I made a whole bunch of points without noting until the very end that "weird fiction" certainly seems to transgress these perceived boundaries...another time, another place, perhaps?
 
And to think I made a whole bunch of points without noting until the very end that "weird fiction" certainly seems to transgress these perceived boundaries...another time, another place, perhaps?

Absolutely. You can't leave it like that. Tickling the intellect with, "...'weird fiction' certainly seems to transgress these perceived boundaries..." and walking out of the room is an open invitation to be stalked until the semi-promised elaboration is revealed.
 
Well, I think weird fiction might deserve its own discussion thread, but if I have to start one, it'll be a while. I have some books to read and a series of reviews to write later this month on Eric Basso's works, but I think if someone else gets that started I might be able to join in later in the week.
 
In reading through this thread, I could not help but to think of this recent review. Note the language employed in the final half of this so-called review (yes, I think the actual review is full of it). Does the terminology employed here represent a certain strident, perhaps "low-brow" opinion of a different type of writing?

Warren Ellis' comment on the review cracked me up :-)

Larry, I think you're discussion on THEY is quite pertinent - most (if not all?) of those involved in the discussion have acknowledged we sit across the divide (if it exists at all). Does it only exist because we keep insisting it does?
 
Graham Joyce is definitely a writer worth mentioning. The Silent Land and The Tooth Fairy are both outstanding. I keep meaning to check out Memoirs of a Master Forger as well.
I read The Silent Land after you placed it on your top 10 list this past year and greatly enjoyed it, one of my favorite reads of the last few years. I'm not all that well read, and hadn't heard of Graham Joyce before that, so I greatly appreciated that recommendation. It really struck a cord with me.
 
Warren Ellis' comment on the review cracked me up :-)

Larry, I think you're discussion on THEY is quite pertinent - most (if not all?) of those involved in the discussion have acknowledged we sit across the divide (if it exists at all). Does it only exist because we keep insisting it does?

Ellis' comment certainly was a marvel to behold.

As for the issue of THEY, I think it mostly (or perhaps, entirely) exists because people like to create neat categories whenever possible. I recall a story by Borges about the animals of the Chinese emperor being divided into all sorts of categories, several of which are decidedly odd but which make sense within the context of that viewpoint (and are nonsensical outside of it). Foucault borrowed that image for one of his books (can't recall if it's The Archaelogy of Knowledge or The Order of Things) to discuss how we categorize things and how for some, those categories become more important than any individual work.

My own formative reading was in non-fiction and the "classics," with very little speculative fiction read before 23 (minus Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, and Bradbury), so I don't feel a great attachment to the speculative side, yet I don't hold that other literary narrative forms are inherently superior independently of how one processes them, so that leaves me in the middle taking potshots from various partisans, I guess! :p

Now to read that new thread link...
 
Graham Joyce is definitely a writer worth mentioning. The Silent Land and The Tooth Fairy are both outstanding. I keep meaning to check out Memoirs of a Master Forger as well.

I have never come across Joyce but having read these recommendations and done a little clicking on Amazon, I have ordered The Silent Land. Looking forward to it.
 

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