A Sci Fi Reading Odyssey - 50 Novels

Westy, still mulling this.
As Mark said, it could be meant to shock, and/or be a comment on some of the more unspoken elements of war - and not necessarily the authors views. Then again there could be an elements of all three, and it was written in the 70's so there's possibly at least some sexism involved!

For me though the passage just seemed out of place, so maybe it was there for the shock element.
 
Mark, remember if you've read Martian Time Slip? Did you find it among the more tolerable? Also, whether good or bad, is there something about PKD's style (talking his 60-70's novels) that is different? Or, do you mean, (when it's not good), it's like an inferior version of X?
To be fair, Matt: I've tried most, but remember very little about any of them. I think Martian Time Slip was one of the better ones. I certainly don't remember it as one of the worst, whatever that means. I really should try some of them again.

The reasons for not liking are many and varied. It's not just one thing. But some of them were too paranoid, too self-centred, some of them had characters that were just weak and whiny or unpleasant, some of them had gaps in credulity and logic, the later books were too meandering on topics I wasn't that bothered about - mainly drugs and religion.

Must point out that they are not all totally bad - there were moments that I quite enjoyed. But I started to feel that the books were repeating ideas I'd heard of before, and didn't want to go back to.
 
To be fair, Matt: I've tried most, but remember very little about any of them. I think Martian Time Slip was one of the better ones...
Thanks for the thorough reply. I got a good sense of what you meant!

Side question :) : In the course of writing your book reviews do you ever\often decide not to review something because you don't feel it's worth it? (too obvious, or you have nothing really thrilling to say about it) Or are you committed to finishing it/ and writing some kind of response regardless?
 
In the course of writing your book reviews do you ever\often decide not to review something because you don't feel it's worth it? (too obvious, or you have nothing really thrilling to say about it) Or are you committed to finishing it/ and writing some kind of response regardless?

We've sort of changed on that. I used to finish every book: now I don't. One of the nice things about SFFWorld is that we are rarely obliged to have to review anything.

At the moment I'm finishing about 1 book in 5 - I have had a lot lately that I've given up after 100-200 pages, for all sorts of reasons. (Eg: Variable characterisation, dodgy plot, issues with logic and style...)

Usually though, I'll review something because I've liked it and think others would be interested in it, or because it is a book that's currently of interest.

The classic reviews are usually because I want to reassess a book I've read before, or it's a book that I've wanted to read for years.

If it's something I've not entirely liked but is still interesting, I'll mention it. If I didn't like it, I'll say why, but probably not review it - there's enough people out there happy to do a hatchet job without us adding to it. I came close recently with the new M. John Harrison - you may have seen the post - but in the end decided that it wasn't worth the effort.

Fairly sure that's how some of the other reviewers feel as well. Behind the scenes we do talk of the books - who is reviewing what, etc - and one of the reasons why I think we generally work is because we seem to have fairly similar views.

That help?
 
Re The Forever War ...there was a loooooonnng exchange about this here, years ago. Major years have gone by, and, now even more so, this is so not a book for our presentist culture. Apart from that many of the best observations Haldeman makes are wry satirical commentary about coming home from a war and finding the world you knew dramatically changed. That's why I loved it.
I should point out, that there are 2 versions of the Forever War and the mandatory platoon orgies, and him returning to urban decay Earth I don't think are in the original novel. Or novella. I think I like the first version better....I've read both...
 
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We've sort of changed on that....
..
That help?
Hell yes! Thanks, every bit of that was interesting. I was a little afraid my question (reading it back) was a little nosey, or was putting you on the spot. But your reply was open, detailed and really useful. In fact I wanted to add questions about your reading patterns, too. But you answered them without me even asking. :-) Thanks!
 
I should point out, that there are 2 versions of the Forever War and the platoon orgies, and him returning to urban decay Earth I don't think are in the original novel. Or novella. I think I like the first version better....I've read both...
I was thinking about that the other day... and then forgot it. I have read both, but can't remember the specific changes between the two. You might be right, Arthur - I could be mixing the two up. And I might have preferred the first version too!


Later Edit:

AAAND.... I must have the novellas as well, because they were in Analog (June 72, Nov 73, Jan 75, November 75). But I don't remember them AT ALL....
 
The first version I think was a fixup of the version that was in the pulps. That was a PG text, the sex was added in later editions to appeal to an older demographic I understand, and it also added some things that the pulp editors had removed for other reasons. This is from foggy memory so don't take it as gospel.
 
Made some fairly light changes to my Forever War review. (most significantly last sentence) I still like it as a book.

Weird that the earlier version perhaps had less of the objectionable parts! You'd think that they'd be the part to be removed, not added! Shows you how complicated things can be, and danger of assumptions. :-)

Finished Left Hand. Working up my response. Danny, are you out there? lol... Started on Neuromancer.

Waiting like a puppy for my first Ace Double to arrive! (D-94) Remind me not to get into collecting, can't afford it. Besides I might have to construct a whole new wing here at Matt H towers to house them! Hmm... Or I guess I could re-locate part of the Royal Stables...
 
One final thing on Forever War...

Several agree that the orgy passage was perhaps introduced for "shock" value. I agreed, but on second thought, I don't really know what you mean. "Shock" as in:

1. Purposefully introduce a possibly controversy? (regarding sexism, etc.)
2. "Spice up" the book, and play up the sex fantasy aspect?
3. Something else?
 
One final thing on Forever War...

Several agree that the orgy passage was perhaps introduced for "shock" value. I agreed, but on second thought, I don't really know what you mean. "Shock" as in:

1. Purposefully introduce a possibly controversy? (regarding sexism, etc.)
2. "Spice up" the book, and play up the sex fantasy aspect?
3. Something else?

I think it's genuine sociosexual speculation on his part, in a Heinlein sort of way...
 
I think it's genuine sociosexual speculation on his part, in a Heinlein sort of way...
Ok, but I noticed the book seems to criticise the unjust and deceptive nature of the war, the violence and blood shed, the chaos on Earth, the stupidity (occasionally) of the militaryt system, but not a peep about the female soldiers who must die on the battlefield, but after hours become legally mandated sex-dollies. Not a peep about that. Also, seeing as how it was *added* later perhaps for sales, not sure how "genuine" it would be. Anyway... Let's not beat a dead horse. lol.. too much other fun stuff to read! :-)
 
It could be all of the reasons you suggest, Matt. But Arthur's point makes sense to me, particularly as the book is an alternative to Heinlein's Starship Troopers... deliberately so, I believe...

Waiting like a puppy for my first Ace Double to arrive! (D-94) Remind me not to get into collecting, can't afford it. Besides I might have to construct a whole new wing here at Matt H towers to house them! Hmm... Or I guess I could re-locate part of the Royal Stables...

Oh that argument sounds familiar... That's how it starts, Matt! :D

ace small.jpg

(Just saying!) :D

Later Edit: Just realised that above those Ace Books are my British issues of Astounding from the 1940s & 50s. Slightly better condition than the US ones... :)
 
Ok, but I noticed the book seems to criticise the unjust and deceptive nature of the war, the violence and blood shed, the chaos on Earth, the stupidity (occasionally) of the militaryt system, but not a peep about the female soldiers who must die on the battlefield, but after hours become legally mandated sex-dollies. Not a peep about that. Also, seeing as how it was *added* later perhaps for sales, not sure how "genuine" it would be. Anyway... Let's not beat a dead horse. lol.. too much other fun stuff to read! :)
There were other things added. Like I said, Mandella's visit to social strife Earth.
I think it's a blind spot of that generation. These are the guys that got the sexual revolution, but had no understanding of women's lib. Read any later book by Heinlein and tell me he only wrote that stuff for sales...
It's not unusual to read any SF writer prior to the 70s New Wave and universally see "problems with women"...

BTW, missed the dead horse post, so I'm not beating it. If this topic is finished I'm good. I have no argument. Dealing with awkward sociosexual content is one of the burdens of the long time SFF reader. There has ceased to be any comfortable justification other than accepting it in a historical context.
:p:eek::oops:o_O
 
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Chiming in here late.
Everything that I have read about Joe Haldeman (mostly from fellow authours) would support Arthur's speculation that "It's genuine sociosexual speculation on his part, in a Heinlein sort of way." - with my personal opinion that it's in a much superior to Heinlein's way. His speculation (not prediction) and views seemed to me to have been shaped, of course, by Vietnam. Reading him cold, years ago, I reacted that he was profoundly anti-war.

Having read every RAH, starting at about the age of 9, he was (obviously) significantly creative, but not speculative. In other words he introduced characters and ideas to further the story, not to be predictive or due to genuine interest in ideas per se. This became clearer as his so called SF veered into fantasy in later years. His politics did intrude, but in terms of plot and character scenerios were invented and he made them more interesting by letting them act out his preferred ideology. A fine line, but It's what I increasingly thought over the years. A storyteller much more than extropolator. He started writing "capable man" stories for Campbell, continued through his juveniles, and went totally overboard in his last several books. He wrote strong capable women, but with the possible exception of Hazel Stone, they were either cutsie stereotyped or "capable men" with no real difference in character than his male characters (see Friday)

Haldeman is obviously a storyteller, but specifically in the Forever books he was talking about society not just writing creatively. And (I looked it up) he is four years older than me. In no way was his characterization of gay folks anything but positive, particularly for 1974. The point made above that some of the role/assumptions about female sexuality are dated seems right, but with perfect hindsight that can be said about many/most great authors, including Ursula le Guin, the prime early sexual stereotype breaker. Other than the scene described and the fact that his lead characters are, to the best of my memory, all male I think that he does as well as almost any of his (my) period.

Thanks for letting me interrupt from my soapbox.

edit: I deliberately waited to re-read Matt's review until after I wrote the above. He describes with better specifics much of what I thought. Thanks for posting Matt.
 
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There were other things added. Like I said, Mandella's visit to social strife Earth.
I think it's a witless blind spot of that generation. These are the guys that got the sexual revolution, but had no understanding of women's lib. Read any later book by Heinlein and tell me he only wrote that stuff for sales...
It's not unusual to read any SF writer prior to the 70s New Wave and see "problems with women"...
Thank you. Arthur, Illuminating. Intuitively I would guess, that yes, Haldeman just didn't particularly see a great problem with it. You can also point out that a measure of male "raunchiness" is an authentic part of military life. Haldeman I know was a soldier and perhaps did it as part-prediction, part for authenticity, perhaps part as wish. Like I said, I still like the book.

But I wonder, would that passage have just stopped a female reader dead in her tracks with a "wtf?" (as Westy suggested) It stopped me a bit, but honestly I was more concerned with the book getting to too sexually graphic (and spoiling the excellent story), than anything else. The implications didn't fully register. It also made me dislike the narrator for that moment.

It's been a stimulating discussion on this and I hope some of our conclusions can add to our thoughtfulness about other works/themes as well. :-)

Finished Left Hand of Darkness and I'm working on a reposnse. Will love to hear anything whatsoever you and the gang have to say about the book and my review.
 
It could be all of the reasons you suggest, Matt. But Arthur's point makes sense to me, particularly as the book is an alternative to Heinlein's Starship Troopers... deliberately so, I believe...

Oh that argument sounds familiar... That's how it starts, Matt! :D
Help, Hobbit's trying to lure me to the Dark Side!
 
Help, Hobbit's trying to lure me to the Dark Side!
Ha ha - I was thinking it was more like "the voice of experience".... for a while my motto was always "If you don't have enough room, move house!!

I am working on my addiction, though.... I even give some books away at work, these days. Baby steps... :D
 
But I wonder, would that passage have just stopped a female reader dead in her tracks with a "wtf?" (as Westy suggested) It stopped me a bit, but honestly I was more concerned with the book getting to too sexually graphic (and spoiling the excellent story), than anything else. The implications didn't fully register. It also made me dislike the narrator for that moment.
The short answer is "yes", and the loooooonnng discussion I refer to that happened here years ago, was about exactly that. A couple of women readers were very indignant about it at the time. I had only read the short version, so I didn't get what they were talking about until I read the revised edition, like a year later. I didn't know it existed, to be frank.
My real speculation, is that maybe the novella was expanded x amount of words/pages, to qualify for awards, of which it won several. Does that sound like it might have legs?
BTW, anyone read Forever Free?
 
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BTW, missed the dead horse post, so I'm not beating it. If this topic is finished I'm good. I have no argument. Dealing with awkward sociosexual content is one of the burdens of the long time SFF reader. There has ceased to be any comfortable justification other than accepting it in a historical context.
:p:eek::oops:o_O
I love horse jerky, so all freedom for any discussion you want! (within site guidlines) And thanks for using my thread! Was more concerned for you guys and monopolizing your time. :-)
 

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