Modern Classics?

[bigal123]

I was just in the top 10 speculative fiction thread and there was a pretty interesting discussion about how modern books/series stand up to what we would consider to be classics. And it got me wondering, what would the "Modern" cannon consist of? And how would they stack up against the Classics?

This is not another greatest or best of thread (we already have a lot of those). I'm really interested in a restricted period of time from about 1990-Present of COMPLETED series, stand-alones or books that created a new trend or changed the nature of the genre in either fantasy, science fiction, or speculative fiction that one could argue is a modern classic.

I think books like: A Game of Thrones ("gritty realism") and Name of the Wind (redefinition of heroic fantasy via frame-story/first person narrative) would qualify. But what else?

 

[Loerwyn]

I think it's way too early to include Rothfuss in a 'Modern Classics' discussion. Yes, he's achieving good sales and has had good reception, but how is that different to Joe Abercrombie and other more 'recent' authors? If you look back at existing classics such as We, Moby Dick or Pride & Prejudice, there's an impact that surrounds them. At this point Rothfuss is really no more than a bestselling author with a lot of critical praise. We won't see how much of a genre-wide impact he's made, if anything, for a few years.

Martin's A Game of Thrones should be included because it's had such an impact on the fantasy genre, and has moved into other mediums too. We have the new show, but we've had tabletop games based on the series and A Song of Ice and Fire, despite being incomplete, is hailed as a great series and perhaps the near pinnacle of epic fantasy.

A modern classics list for fantasy would be made up of things like Feist's Magician, Brooks' Shannara and Jordan's The Eye of the World. They're books that have defined fantasy, have brought generations of readers into this genre and inspired countless authors. They're books that, without a doubt, are must-reads and absolutely key to any fantasy fan.

Rothfuss doesn't have that, nor do any of the authors of this 'current' generation such as Sanderson, Newton, Hamilton (Although he's sci-fi) and so forth. If we came back to this in 10-20 years, maybe Sanderson would be up there. Maybe Hamilton would come to be seen as the next 'greatest' sci-fi author. We simply don't know.

 

[DailyRich]

In my mind, any series would have to be finished before I'd put it on any kind of classic list. I've seen too many failed landings to laud a trilogy after the first two books.

 

[bigal123]

I think it's way too early to include Rothfuss in a 'Modern Classics' discussion. Yes, he's achieving good sales and has had good reception, but how is that different to Joe Abercrombie and other more 'recent' authors?

I think you're right; I spoke too soon. I guess we will have to wait and see what the impact of Name of the Wind will be for future generations.

A modern classics list for fantasy would be made up of things like Feist's Magician, Brooks' Shannara

I'm not sure I would characterize Shannara or Magician as a modern classic. But then again what counts as modern? I tried to restrict the discussion to books between 1990 and the Present, however, I'm only 22 so my definition of modern is probably not universal.

In my mind, any series would have to be finished before I'd put it on any kind of classic list.

This is why I explicitly stated only completed series. But I realized that would keep books like A Game of Thrones off the list so I expanded it to stand-alones as well as individual books. What series, if any, would you include?

 

[Loerwyn]

I'm not sure I would characterize Shannara or Magician as a modern classic. But then again what counts as modern? I tried to restrict the discussion to books between 1990 and the Present, however, I'm only 22 so my definition of modern is probably not universal.

I'm 21

Didn't realise Shannara and Magician released in '77 and '82 respectively, though. Wow. Shannara's been going for 34 years now! Silly me

 

[3rdI]

Nonsense. A series doesn't have to be finished. Great is great period. The Name of the Wind and The Wise Man's Fear are classics regardless how The Doors of Stone turns out. They stand on their own. Martin's ASOIAF is a classic. AFFC not so much but that doesn't take away from what he has achieved.

Now the question is what do we consider to be "modern"? Last 10 years? 20? 30? Considering most of the "classics" that I see certain people list are at minimum 50 years old that leaves us some time to work with. Define as you choose.

The works below I consider to be modern classics in Speculative Fiction (a small off the top of my head sample).

The Name of the Wind - Patrick Rothfuss
The Wise Man's Fear - Patrick Rothfuss
A Game of Thrones - George R.R. Martin
A Clash of Kings - George R.R. Martin
A Storm of Swords - George R.R. Martin
The Book of the New Sun - Gene Wolfe (Is 1980 modern? *shrugs*)
The Wizard Knight - Gene Wolfe
Perdido Street Station - China Mieville
Kraken - China Mieville -
The Prince of Nothing Trilogy - R. Scott Bakker
The Judging Eye - R. Scott Bakker
The White Luck Warrior - R. Scott Bakker
Memory, Sorrow, & Thorn - Tad Williams
The War of the Flowers - Tad Williams
The First Law - Joe Abercrombie

I am sick of hearing about Borges, Huxley, Wells, Vance, Lewis, Dunsany etc. Dunsany is the only one I actually like. As for the rest I don't care at all. Hell if we are going to talk classics in Fantasy I would much prefer reading Homer than Borges. The Iliad and The Odyssey are poems but goodness they feel an awful lot like epic fantasy. How about Shakespeare? Macbeth, The Tempest, and A Midsummer Night's Dream are chock full of the fantastic. If Tolkien is the "father" of epic fantasy Homer is it's Great Great Great etc grandfather. Borges and Huxley were intellectuals who played with fantastic elements to discuss social issues. Stories advanced for their time but fairly simple now. Topics and Issues that were discussed at length prior to Borges and topics that have since been discussed at far more complex levels. That isn't a knock on Borges. Borges was a brilliant man and a fantastic writer. But fantasy doesn't begin and end with him. Philosophy doesn't begin and end with him. Political commentary doesn't begin and end with him.

Bottom line good is good. Great is great. Authors are writing stories now that Wells, Borges, and Lewis couldn't have dreamed of. And we are limiting this discussion to speculative fiction. Literary Fiction continues to evolve and grow. Poetry, Satire, Philosophy etc etc etc. This notion that relevant literature somehow stopped after 1950 is absurd. I don't give a damn what High Brow Academia considers classic. Academia rarely even agrees with itself. Anyone can play at being an armchair quarterback.

 

[DailyRich]

Any list of modern fantasy classics would have to contain some Guy Gavriel Kay.

 

[3rdI]

Any list of modern fantasy classics would have to contain some Guy Gavriel Kay.

Agreed. I just listed a few that came to mind. I personally haven't been able to get into Kay because he lays the romance on so thick but his prose is fantastic.

 

[newfiesailor]

Martin's ASOIAF - I don't think there's any question there.

Moon's Deed Of Paksenarrion - If it's not considered a classic, it damn well should be. One of the most underrated fantasy books ever.

Lynch's The Lies of Locke Lamora - I don't care if the rest of the series sucks, this book is a classic.

Rothfuss's The Name of the Wind - See Scott Lynch above.

The Icewind Dale Trilogy - It doesn't matter if I have outgrown or tired of Drizzt adventures, these books deserve a place in the classics list. If the original series was bad, why so many sequels?

Dragonlance Chronicles - See Icewind Dale above.

Abercrombie's First Law Trilogy - I think these books were the start of something special.

The Dresden Files - made urban fantasy accessible to males.

Malazan Books of the Fallen - Too much impact on the genre to ignore.

Bakker's Prince of Nothing Trilogy - made fantasy a cerebral and challenging experience. Not to mention the great imagery.

3rdI, I find it strange you mention Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun as a classic, but don't like Vance's writing. The Book of the New Sun is clearly a nod to Vance's Tales of the Dying Earth. Especially where Vance's series involves a dying sun and Wolfe's title includes "A New Sun". The feel of Wolfe's series is strongly reminiscent of the tales in Vance's first book in the series, The Dying Earth, if not the rest of the series. I felt the connection right away when they entered the cemetary in The Shadow of the Torturer. Different strokes, I guess...

I wish I had more than ten choices in the speculative fiction category asked earlier in the other thread. I would have surely included Beowulf, Grimm's Fairy Tales and Arabian Nights as classics but I wanted a good mix of horror, fantasy and sci-fi, including ancient, modern and in-between.

 

[3rdI]

3rdI, I find it strange you mention Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun as a classic, but don't like Vance's writing. The Book of the New Sun is clearly a nod to Vance's Tales of the Dying Earth. Especially where Vance's series involves a dying sun and Wolfe's title includes "A New Sun". The feel of Wolfe's series is strongly reminiscent of the tales in Vance's first book in the series, The Dying Earth, if not the rest of the series. I felt the connection right away when they entered the cemetary in The Shadow of the Torturer. Different strokes, I guess...

Vance is a good writer. Very influential particularly in the realm of science fiction. Just not my cup of tea. It would make sense that Dying Earth would have influenced Wolfe. Wolfe was in his early twenties when The Dying Earth was released. It is no different than Abercrombie citing Martin as an influence or Sanderson citing Jordan. They grew up with those writers.

The Book of the New Sun, while it does give a slight nod to Vance, stands on its own as a masterpiece. Wolfe's writing style doesn't remind me of anyone else.

 

[DailyRich]

The Icewind Dale Trilogy - It doesn't matter if I have outgrown or tired of Drizzt adventures, these books deserve a place in the classics list. If the original series was bad, why so many sequels?

Because they sold a ton of copies. Which is in no way an indicator of quality.

 

[newfiesailor]

Because they sold a ton of copies. Which is in no way an indicator of quality.

I'm sorry; when Drizzt first came out, he captured the imagination of many young readers, especially the D&D generation.

He would probably be compared similarly to Harry Potter now, but on a lesser degree.

And even though I'm not a fan of Harry Potter, one can definitely say Rowling' s books have had quite the impact on fantasy. And probably will be considered a classic in generations to come.

Classic doesn't always mean good. Ask 3rdI.

 

[Eventine]

Here we go another thread where everyone names their favourite books and then argues about the definition of "classic" and "canon" if others don't agree with them. Ho hum.

 

[newfiesailor]

Here we go another thread where everyone names their favourite books and then argues about the definition of "classic" and "canon" if others don't agree with them. Ho hum.

I didn't even say the Drizzt series was one of my favourites. But one has to admit, he is one of the most recognizable figures in fantasy today. How could he not be considered a classic? Please don't put words in my mouth.

I agree with DailyRich's opinion. I think the Drizzt series is great for early fantasy readers, but not necessarily as entertainment for an older, more experienced reader. But to each their own.

 

[DailyRich]

Classic doesn't always mean good.

Head hurts. Going to lie down for a while.

 

[Eventine]

You must have a guilty conscience newfie, I stopped reading the thread well before your post

 

[newfiesailor]

You must have a guilty conscience newfie, I stopped reading the thread well before your post

My mistake, Eventine; I thought you were addressing me. I'll have to work on that conscience. LOL.

 

[3rdI]

Here we go another thread where everyone names their favourite books and then argues about the definition of "classic" and "canon" if others don't agree with them. Ho hum.

Uh yeah....

Pretty sure I have been critical of Martin rather often yet I listed some of his books as classics. The question posed by the OP was about modern classics and no matter what I think of Martin professionally I cannot in good conscious keep his first three books off a list of "modern" classics. For that matter as much as I hate The Wheel of Time series it would have to be included as a modern classic. As DR said a number of Kay's books would also qualify. I am not a big fan of Kay either. But again how can anyone have a discussion about modern classics and leave out The Fionavar Tapestry?

 

[3rdI]

I suspect Matthew Woodring Stover's Caine books would probably make many a list. I just wish I could find Blade of Tyshelle in stock somewhere.

 

[Ashenburger]

I suspect Matthew Woodring Stover's Caine books would probably make many a list. I just wish I could find Blade of Tyshelle in stock somewhere.

Amazon's kindlestore has it, if you have a kindle or an android/ios device. There is a program to read it on the pc, but that would be hard on your eyes, I believe.