Critique: Beginning of an idea.

[Susan Boulton]

Midway through Chapter 19, it dawned on me that I must travel through time to say about 2025C.E. to Oxford Uni where the topic for discussion for today is the naming of characters in Holbrook's work. First, they analyze with Freud's methodology, then with Jung's, then with Disney's, and finally with the Old Guy in the Desert's. Realizing the names in the Hat Man bear a strong resemblance to the names in the HOG, the clear and certain conclusion is that both works were written by a woman of circumstance and talent abiding somewhere in the Shire in a world not as clearly understood as one would like. The OGitD comes away unhappy that the guy in the Hat Man could conceivably have the flaws of the guy in the HOG causing him to remark: "Jes' ain't right, ya know?"

Well if Hat Man gets taken up, Albert in HOG becomes Alfred... as to the other names I used good old English names in Hat Man as a joke, in HOG I used poplar names of the period....lol...

Chapter19, soooo what do you think of it.... and do you like the name of the pawnbroker???

 

[BrianC]

I am not sure I suspect 1930, though it has been reprinted in The Pengiun book of First World War poetry the last edition of that is dated 1996

I am also using a few chunks of The Nurse's Story by Richard Harris Barham 1788-1845) As Hardy reads a section of it....

I am not that worried as if I do get this work taken up it will be something for my agent/publkisher to deal with

Cross post , see above

 

[Hereford Eye]

What do I think of it?
Well, the first thing that comes to mind is that your grandfather will be proud. You did his generation fair dinkum, you did.
Hardy's plight seems to me believable so that grandpa's ghost seems real enough. The pawnbroker's plight even more so. The love affair played out well and proper. Agnes is enough modern for her times to make her story believeable for today, the brass of the woman to expose a thigh at story's conclusion! Stafford and surrounds came alive, particularly neat that you worked Shugborough into the mix. Imagine a chase scene through that mansion!
You need another editing, ma'am. But, you already knew that.
Congratulations for a job truly well done.

 

[Dawnstorm]

Keep the names. Why not? Gives the critics something to chew on. Genre critics might think you pulled a Moorcock (heh).

I'll read this one day, but I don't have the time right now. Which, reading this thread, irks me.

 

[Susan Boulton]

What do I think of it?
Well, the first thing that comes to mind is that your grandfather will be proud. You did his generation fair dinkum, you did.
Hardy's plight seems to me believable so that grandpa's ghost seems real enough. The pawnbroker's plight even more so. The love affair played out well and proper. Agnes is enough modern for her times to make her story believeable for today, the brass of the woman to expose a thigh at story's conclusion! Stafford and surrounds came alive, particularly neat that you worked Shugborough into the mix. Imagine a chase scene through that mansion!
You need another editing, ma'am. But, you already knew that.
Congratulations for a job truly well done.

Glad you liked it. Yes, it does need another edit. I keep looking at it, going through it and hating each word at present.

My main target in the editing is to get the first five chapters done for the sample requested. Once the stamps arrive it will be off.....

 

[Susan Boulton]

Keep the names. Why not? Gives the critics something to chew on. Genre critics might think you pulled a Moorcock (heh).

I'll read this one day, but I don't have the time right now. Which, reading this thread, irks me.

Moorcock is one of my writing heros I would never even hope to have my work compared with his!

Understand about not being able to read this, you are trying to finish your own work and I know how that drains the energy.

HE;

Agnes, you don't know how hard I struggled to make her "less" modern. The last thing I wanted was any of my characters to be modern day ones in costume. The whole feel, language and characterisation of Hand of Glory had to be as much 1920's England as I could make it. It would not have worked if I hadn't of done that. The whole theme is of that generation having their world, as they viewed it, turned on its head by WW1

 

[Hereford Eye]

Understand and agree that you did exactly that WHILE looking ahead to events to come. Your throwaway lines about what it meant to young men out-of-a-job who had been in WWI and the young women who had served as nurses is the modernity I was referring to. Remember, I started off by remarking you had done your Grandfather's generation proud.

 

[Susan Boulton]

Thanks HE. Though as you know I doubt the quality of my work all the time.

I am currently half way through the current edit. I am finding a lot of errors and trimming a few sentences, adding less that I am taking away, though, could drop the word count a little. I intend to do another complete edit before the end of the month.(number four) The first five chapters have had a good half dozen now.(I keep going over them trying to polish them as much as I can) The rest is on number three.

Submissions total 18. Rejections 6, requests for samples 2, outstanding 10.... lol.... All email queries, not started on the UK ones as yet, which will be sample chapters snail mail, normal UK slush for agents....

 

[KatG]

I'm a little confused. You're editing it, but already sending it out? I hope you are putting in commas.

 

[Susan Boulton]

I'm a little confused. You're editing it, but already sending it out? I hope you are putting in commas.

Yes, lots of them....

I am only sending out query email letters. Most agents say 3 months waiting before they even get to look at a query. The two samples, well one was for 5 pages only. (I edited the life out of those few pages.) The other is for 100 pages, but I haven't sent that yet as I am waiting for the US stamps to arrive for the SAE. And as there is a postal strike in this county I can't post it anyway....

The UK ones won't be going out until late November or most likely later.....

 

[Hereford Eye]

Those stamps ought to be there by now even considering the U.S. Post Office participation.

 

[lin]

Moorcock is one of my writing heroes

Cool. I am most familiar with him through his early Hawkewind and Blue Oyster Cult lyrics, which I thought established a sort of literary genre all of their own.

 

[Susan Boulton]

Cool. I am most familiar with him through his early Hawkewind and Blue Oyster Cult lyrics, which I thought established a sort of literary genre all of their own.

I have been reading his books since the late 1970's. He has a knack of saying a lot with just a few words, that in these days of overblown fantasy novels is refreshing.

 

[Susan Boulton]

KatG and Brian are most likely to jump on me, but... I am doubting the first two pages of HOG. A couple of rejections I have had from agents this weekend (ones that had sample pages) seem to suggest this is the stumbling block.

On the other hand I have had a couple of agents like the writing, even saying it had merit, with the big but after of course, and one wants to see any new work once it is written.

So... totally bummed out a bit. These personal rejections are harder than the form letter, those I can take, lol.

 

[Dawnstorm]

A couple of rejections I have had from agents this weekend (ones that had sample pages) seem to suggest this is the stumbling block.

Bah! What do they know.

 

[Hereford Eye]

Doubting the first pages is normal, healthy, and lots of fun for a day or two. Later, though, remember why you thought those pages were a good idea. What has changed besides the comments of a few people who may or may not know what they are talking about?
It occurred to me last night when I couldn't get back to sleep that agents are people, just like you and me and DS - we're resreving opinon here about editors - and people like us are prone to judgments which no one else in the world agrees with. So, we ought to take their judgments - as we do ours -with a shaker of salt.

 

[Susan Boulton]

Yes, I know I am wittering, but never submitted so many times before to big agents (And getting requests for samples and comments as well, both good and bad)I just feel it is so close, but still it is going to slip away. Just one request for a full manuscript would make all the effort worthwhile.

I still have a lot more agents to query. I reckon it will take me most of this year to get through them. (I only do snail mail ones two or three at a time)

As for new work I keep going over ideas, things begin to jell then fall apart.(Though three drafted out ideas are not bad lol) Nothing has fired me up since HOG.

 

[KatG]

I'm not going to jump on you at all. It's your book. If you've been getting commentary specifically about the first couple of pages and if you think that commentary is valid or at least is signalling a problem that needs to be addressed, then you should do what you feel works best. It's been a tricky call between the poetry of your surrealistic prose and clarity of detail for that opening. Maybe the mix hasn't worked out quite right yet, though for me, it works great.

But if you think your opening is strong and are just getting disenheartened, then you have to think about it very carefully. Because if you're trying to change things without really seeing why or what need there is to change them, chances are you aren't going to change those pages very well. Even on a writer for hire or tie-in novel where an author may be writing to someone else's outline, the author still has to be clear about what he or she is doing. And when the author is the sole creator, the only one who can put any suggestion to work is going to be you, which means you have to understand what it is you're doing.

So think about it, I'd suggest. Really think about it and what you would do if you changed things and how much you feel the need at the story-level, not the marketing level. Because you definitely don't want to lose that passion and horror that makes the opening so compelling for us, your faithful readers.

Editors and agents are people, yes thanks HE, and they like different things. (At least, I think I was a person back then.) And sometimes they make poor judgments.

I know you have a new idea that you are juggling with. But if that one isn't working for you and you feel like you need some other focus besides all the lovely fun of marketing, consider starting on the sequel to Hand of Glory you were thinking about. Might help with clarifying whether you need to tinker with HOG or not.

 

[Susan Boulton]

It's not so much about altering the pages, adding or taking away, but moving around. Seems to be that starting with just dialogue is putting them off (Though how you can, from 3rd POV, have descriptions of the people talking when the 3rd POV character does not know them or can't see them I don't know...) So I have fiddled with the first two pages, placing the first narative section on page two before the dialogue and removing just two very small lines. I have sent these off to two agents that only ask for the first 15 pages, as a test.

We shall see, if they ask for more, then, well I might switch the main manuscript to that. But I have a number of submissions out with the original beginning, some of which have been out quite a long time, so either waiting the rejection form, been binned, or maybe they are having a second look (ok, I can dream lol)

I have also realised that the surrealistic prose as you call it, has the same type of form as a lot of first world war poetry. It came about by pure chance, I was reading a lot of poetry of the time when I was working on getting a handle on the beginning of HOG.

There are a quite a few stories I would like to tell, using secondary characters as the major ones. The Inspector, the pawnbroker, Adams, (before the war of course) perhaps new characters with the orginal ones as secondary. There is so much folk lore I could blend in, in a similar manner, and the time period is ideal from then right up to the early '70's. (Roughly Hardy's lifespan...)

The new idea is slowing being worked on, but I have yet to find a character I can connect with, Hawkshand is not working out. I might go back to my original idea, but then folks might think it is YA, which is will not be, as the previous main POV was to be a 13 year lad.

I am also looking for an old disc with a number of old short stories and half baked ideas for novels on. I know it is about somewhere.. lol...

 

[KatG]

LOL, you're kidding me. I mean, all that crap I had to put up with from students and around here too -- not that I don't love you all -- about adverbs and exposition and dialog tags and opening with a bang and how dialog all by itself is everything, and you actually do a dynamite opening with just dialog -- and they freak out? Arrrgh!

Don't change it, then. It weeds out the brain-dead agents.

And this is why you don't go chasing the magic key, kiddies.