R. Scott Bakker - The Second Apocalypse

[Roland 85]

Oh, about your last thoughts I agree. I just don't think the existence of humans depends on the gods. That makes absolutely no sense to me.

 

[Mithfânion]

I'd point to the originator of this theory, who seems to have captured some of Bakker's rather enigmatic thinking, who posted his thoughts here. The posts are quite lengthy but very interesting and as Wert pretty much says above, they are somewhat Bakker approved. This seems to be the right idea about the metaphysics of the series, at least to some extent.


http://www.forum.three-seas.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39359

Post Judging Eye:

http://www.forum.three-seas.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=39431

Honestly I don't think I would have come to this on my own.

 

[Roland 85]

Yes, those are quite interesting really, and I get why Bakker would approve of them.

 

[Salsa Dip]

The Scylvendi worshipped the No-God. Cnaiur even says something like, "Your people murdered my god."

I'm also pretty sure that the Inchoroi regard the No-God as their saviour. Sorry, I can't remember where I read that but I'm pretty sure it's mentioned explicitly somewhere. I realise that isn't a particularly helpful comment

Whether "saviour" is meant in a religious way or mundane way is up for debate of course.

 

[HeclaBull]

I liked "Horns of Golgotterath" much more than Unholy Consult. Maybe RSB will be swayed from it, as he was when we convinced him at Three Seas that Thousandfold Thought was much better than "When Sorcerers sing".

Great to hear that this will be a very big book and probably even bigger than The Warrior Prophet. Love this series.

"Horns of Golgotterath" is a great title, it sounds like a Celtic Frost album.

Has anyone come across a preview from The White Luck Warrior anywhere?

 

[Roland 85]

It's a bit ponderous though, whyle The Unholy Consult flows...

 

[cohelian]

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[Roland 85]

Uh, Kellhus is the fantasy equivalent of a Bene Geserit witch. He is also the product of 2000 years of selective breeding in extreme conditions. The reason he barely survived the mountain was that the informational input was too much for a mind used to dealing with just one predictable fortress, and he couldn't acclimate himself to the new circumstances right away.

Honestly, I was rolling my eyes the whole time I was reading your post...

 

[HeclaBull]

Yeah, I don't see how you have no problem buying into an alien getting superpowers from the sun but when an author lays groundwork where there's selective breeding to produce an actual super man(eugenics) and explains how this super man is then trained since birth to acquire all his skills it ruins the suspension of disbelief.

 

[redviper]

Nobody can read body language reliably. When people scratch their ear or their ass it's because they itch.
Bakker could have had a really great series here and he totally screwed it up over 1 character.
How hard is it to manipulate just one intelligent person? How hard is it to manipulate you? When someone even tries we automatically go on the defensive and never give in simply because someone's trying to play with our heads.

Either you are 12 or you have been living completely sheltered for your entire life.

It is not impossible to read body language. Even today people can cold read you with almost all the results that kellhus showed.

There have been charismatic people throughout history who have manipulated not just one person but entire nations into doing their bidding. If you know how to say it and when to say you can get just about anything from people. Right now. Today. You.

Kellhus is the greatest protagonist/antagonist in any fantasy series ever.

 

[Roland 85]

Dunno about greatest, but he's pretty awesome. Also, it is actually described in book 2 how the Duniayn are made to learn all the muscles of the face. Pretty creepy.

 

[HeclaBull]

My favorite thing about Kellhus is how I can he starts out as a standard fantasy protagonist that I want to succeed and after seeing more of his motives and actions, I start seeing that he is closer to a fantasy villain, although much more complex. I don't know if this has already been discussed in another thread, but what do people think his intentions are with his new crusade in the latest book?

 

[saintjon]

Hate to burst your bubble but I've heard Superman does have mind powers...

He can force people into a trance where they have to battle his kryptonian will or some garbage like that. This came up in a super-nerdy argument of the merits of Superman vs. Batman.

And to say no comic book character has the mental acuity of Kellhus is flat out ridiculous because comic book writers are for the most part ridiculous. Reed Richards can build time machines and crap. If you want I can find someone who is versed in the exploits of Doctor Doom and we can have a side-by-side comparison and see which one is less plausible.

I love how people can refuse to see the point of something and then say it's pointless.

 

[Zinq Asréal]

Kellhus

I personally don't find that Kellhus is a fantasy villain, but neither do I believe he is a hero, because I believe that he has some seperate agenda other than destroying the consult, to further the Dunyain, or even perhaps to destroy them, because I'm sure that they are really the only ones who could challenge him, plus there are probably more powerful Dunyain than he.

P.S. Does any one know when The Unholy Consult is coming out?

 

[Werthead]

Scott has said he wants to finish the entire Second Apocalypse series before writing any more books, and he estimates 12-18 months between the remaining books (either 3 or 4 more volumes depending on if the final sub-series is two or three books, which he hasn't decided on yet).

Orbit, his UK publishers, have told me they want The Unholy Consult out in July 2012, and think that's realistic at the moment. In his last interview on the topic, Bakker said he'd gotten a good head of steam up on the book and in fact had started planning out the second 'giant encyclopedia' (following up on the one at the end of The Thousandfold Thought) for it as well. So it does sound like the next one should be a 2012 release.

 

[3rdI]

I personally don't find that Kellhus is a fantasy villain, but neither do I believe he is a hero, because I believe that he has some seperate agenda other than destroying the consult, to further the Dunyain, or even perhaps to destroy them, because I'm sure that they are really the only ones who could challenge him, plus there are probably more powerful Dunyain than he.

P.S. Does any one know when The Unholy Consult is coming out?

Kellhus is without equal. No Quya or Inchoroi can match him. He created the meta gnosis. He is the measure. The walking God. Mog-Pharau seems to be the center of his focus. After that, I suspect he will simply walk away. Bakker did not write Kellhus as a character that covets power. Everything is a means to an end. The only truly relevant question for the reader, in my opinion, is whether the ends will end up justifying the means.