SoT - Legend of the Seeker

[Sparrow]

I bet if Card wrote SoT this thread wouldnt even exist.

And, if he wrote it twenty years ago, before he lost his mind.

Ender's Game and Xenocide are on my all time fav list, with Ender's Game in the top five best ever. I will forgive alot so long as the writing and story are great. Michael Crichton also falls into this camp, best hard sf writer there has ever been but who turned into a conservative ninny and became unreadable. He was never the writer that Card or Heinlein were, two writers whose politics and philosophy I don't like one bit, but his ideas and impact on science fiction are second to none.

 

[Sparrow]

Actually, PvT, Goodkind has said that he isn't writing fantasy stories (not to mention implying that he is above the genre) and certainly implies that the books are allegory.

That's exactly right.

To read an interview of Terry you soon find out how close to the heart Rand's writing/philosophy really are. There is no separating the two.

A transcript from a 2003 circle-jerk session...

http://cgi1.usatoday.com/mchat/20030805003/tscript.htm

snip'd from the Q & A...
Weymouth, MA: In your opinion who is the most must-read, cutting edge writer publishing today?

Terry Goodkind: Ayn Rand.

... and my favorite exchange...
Haddonfield, NJ: Second Question - I've noticed similarities between your Sword of Truth series and Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series...(Black Sisterhood vs. Black Ajah; The Order vs. The Seanchan; Richard vs. Rand both discovering their powers, both have Nameless evil Gods...etc.) I've often voiced my suspicion that these two series might be occurring on the same world...how crazy am I?

Terry Goodkind: If you notice a similarity, then you probably aren't old enough to read my books.

When you read how Terry describes his books you may wonder if he's even read his own work.

 

[Roland 85]

You make the assumption that Goodkind fans can't appreciate better writers or that they think that Goodkind is a literary great. I'm a Goodkind fan, do I think he is amazing? No. Do I think he is as good as a Vance or Bradbury? No. Can my appreciation differentiate between them all and still enjoy them all? Yes.

The bolded part is pure crap. I've already said there are fans that like Goodkind and think he's a decent enough writer, but who also love some literary giants. You can tell yourself they like those writers for 'superficial reasons' and some might, but plenty don't and considering you don't know most of these people, your wild assumptions are little more then pathetic. But keep on thinking your subjective opinion is law of the land, pal, I'm sure it massages your ego nicely.

It's a matter of terminology. Goodkind is NOT a decent enough writer. He is BELOW sanitary norms, and to me anyone who claims otherwise has lapses in knowledge/intelligence/perception/any combination of the three. Like I said, I wouldn't mind people who read him and like him in a guilty pleasure kinda way, as long as they recognize him as crap. But there are NO standards that can put Hemingway and Goodkind in the same boat (even by saying that one is better than the other).

The ignorance of this statement brings ignorance to heights undreamed of. A benchmark has been set here today.

You have to be a troll. How could anyone really think like this. So, i can't in my right mind respond to any of your future comments. I took the bait this time, it won't happen again. Unless you were joking. If you were joking...ignore this comment.

And to be clear, I am not saying you are ignorant, I am saying that statement is ignorant.

I am not a troll, as basically ALL my posts in this forum indicate, and the statement is not ignorant. You are welcome to prove me wrong, but you'll have to do better than throwing labels in my face. I am rarely impressed by the words people use to describe me - that doesn't replace argumentation in my book.

 

[Evil Agent]

I read the first five Goodkind books, starting about 12 years ago, because I was only 19 and did not know any other fantasy authors besides Tolkien and Eddings. I wish that, back then, I'd had a forum like this to direct me to the dozens of better authors I discovered later.

Just this week, I have had close encounters of the No-Goodkind. I saw a friend on facebook asking for book recommendations, and someone (who I don't know) commented "Wizard's First Rule by Terry Goodkind. Amazing!" I couldn't help myself and had to speak out against this recommendation.

And just yesterday, I was browsing the fantasy section of the local Chapters bookstore. I saw a guy holding Wizard's First Rule, reading the back, etc. I SO wanted to speak up and say "Dude, don't do it. There are so many better authors in this section" (in fact, I often want to give recommendations to the obvious fantasy-newbies I see browsing the fantasy section), but I held my tongue. Sadly, he walked off (book in hand) to make his purchase.

Even though I ince read them myself, I now find myself wondering how so many people can still be reading and recommending Terry Goodkind. When I read his books, he was fairly new on the scene... but it seems that more people should be aware of his poor reputation by now.

 

[Rob B]

Clear heads people, clear heads, please. No need insulting or personally attacking Goodkind's fans or personally attacking those who don't like his work.

 

[ChrisW]

I love a good back and forth but i'm a tad sick of every Goodkind thread becoming a bashathon of him and his fans no matter how amusing it is.

 

[nquixote]

Have you read Card's recent Ender books? Your praise for his writing may need updating.

Well, good point, I guess. I like the Alvin Maker books a lot more than the original Ender trilogy, though. I thought Ender's Game was good but overrated, and the other Ender books are sort of unrelated to the first...

And anyway, yeah, many writers go downhill after massive commercial success. It happens.

Terry Goodkind just happened to go downhill long before his commercial success. Possibly in the womb.

 

[nquixote]

Goodkind is NOT a decent enough writer. He is BELOW sanitary norms

Can restaurants be shut down for having Goodkind books in their restrooms? Sweet Cthulhu, I hope so.

I am not a troll

Well, being a troll myself, I can say I am not bashing Goodkind for Teh Lulz, but for the Good of All Humankind.

Teh lulz are there, though.

 

[Gizmo]

It's a matter of terminology. Goodkind is NOT a decent enough writer. He is BELOW sanitary norms, and to me anyone who claims otherwise has lapses in knowledge/intelligence/perception/any combination of the three. Like I said, I wouldn't mind people who read him and like him in a guilty pleasure kinda way, as long as they recognize him as crap. But there are NO standards that can put Hemingway and Goodkind in the same boat (even by saying that one is better than the other).

Ahh, now it's lapses in intelligence/knowledge. Whatever helps you sleep at night I guess.

And again here's where you fall down, as I said, I know people who like Hemingway and Goodkind. Never would they say Goodkind is anywhere near as good as Hemingway, but they, like many, are capable of finding Goodkind a decent enough writer as well as enjoying other aspects of his work but at the same time differentiating between a literary great. Quite a simple thing to do really.

 

[Seegee]

A friend recommended Wizard's First Rule to me. I got about halfway through and was turned off by the childish characterisation and almost non existent world building, so I put the book down and never picked it up again. I think I eventually gave it away when I was trying to make space for things I actually wanted in the library. I was surprised at how popular the following books were and how many of them there were, but each to their own. I know if anyone asked me for a recommendation I steered them clear of Goodkind. I was completely unaware of his extreme Randian philosophies or his 'I don't write fantasy' stance at that point.
Having said all that I do like Legend of the Seeker on TV. It's awful, really, really awful, it's car crash TV, so bad that you just have to watch it, you know you shouldn't, but you can't help it. Craig Horner's acting is so dreadful that I'm ashamed to say he's an Aussie, but I like bad TV, not a lot, just some and LoS fits the bill perfectly. It also has Bruce Spence and he's always worth watching. I also find Bridget Regan and some of the Mord Sith very easy on the eye. Shallow? Moi? Never!

 

[Sidmyster]

Even though I ince read them myself, I now find myself wondering how so many people can still be reading and recommending Terry Goodkind. When I read his books, he was fairly new on the scene... but it seems that more people should be aware of his poor reputation by now.

I started to read due to his reputation, just to see what the fuss was all about. I actually enjoyed the first book, im not saying he is an amazing writer, i simply enjoyed the story.

 

[Roland 85]

Ahh, now it's lapses in intelligence/knowledge. Whatever helps you sleep at night I guess.

And again here's where you fall down, as I said, I know people who like Hemingway and Goodkind. Never would they say Goodkind is anywhere near as good as Hemingway, but they, like many, are capable of finding Goodkind a decent enough writer as well as enjoying other aspects of his work but at the same time differentiating between a literary great. Quite a simple thing to do really.

You know, I'm not counting, but I think this is about the tenth time you've said exactly the same thing. It's getting quite boring, and only grows more absurd with repetition. Yes, people can like crap AND decent literature at the same time. It's a matter of whether they realize the crap is crap, or not.

 

[Gizmo]

You know, I'm not counting, but I think this is about the tenth time you've said exactly the same thing. It's getting quite boring, and only grows more absurd with repetition. Yes, people can like crap AND decent literature at the same time. It's a matter of whether they realize the crap is crap, or not.

"people who could think that Goodkind's writing is anything but crap, do not have the necessary knowledge and literary awareness to appreciate better writers"

The 'same thing' is in regards to this quote of yours here. You keep going along with this absurd idea which is false, which is so obviously false. I'll repeat: I know people who think Goodkind is a decent writer, but who also appreciate others such as Hemingway or (keeping it in fantasy circles) Vance and Martin as better writers. Those people have disproven your absurd, laughable statement which is quite possibly one of the most ridiculous things I've heard from an anti-goodkind type.

But yes, we are both getting repetitious here...if you still cling to that idea as if it's a fact or even remotely true...then I'll think I'll stop, as there is simply no getting through to such stubborn ridiculousness.

 

[Roland 85]

To be painfully honest, I don't know how you could claim what I say is "absurd", considering most of the people in this topic agree with me. Also, so far we only have your "I know people", and as far as arguments go the SOS (Someone Once Said) is pretty weak. I don't know any such people. Does anybody else here know such people?

 

[Gizmo]

To be painfully honest, I don't know how you could claim what I say is "absurd", considering most of the people in this topic agree with me. Also, so far we only have your "I know people", and as far as arguments go the SOS (Someone Once Said) is pretty weak. I don't know any such people. Does anybody else here know such people?

Oh gee, most people who generally don't like Goodkind, his works or his philosophy on an internet forum agree with you, gee willy!

Sure, I have no way to prove these people to you. If you rate Vance as a classic fantasy writer or Pratchett then I am one first hand. But they exist. Take it or leave it. We're going around in circles here though, so unless you have something else to add...?

 

[Twinner]

I am no fan of Goodkind's SoT series, but what jumps out at me about this thread (and many other threads) is that there are a LOT of readers who feel that they know good literature from bad, good stories from bad, good writing from bad. I think we all share this to some extent since we know what we like and what we don't like. Out of this group emerges a subgroup of people who feel they know good from bad (writing, books, stories) but take it a step further to assume that anyone who disagrees with their opinion on these things just doesn't understand, is not smart enough to see, etc.... It's a pretty self-centered view of reading and enjoying fantasy novels. To some degree literature is like art and sometimes it strikes a cord with one person but not another person. I guess the trick is to be humble enough to realize that we all see and interpret things differently and no one of us is the authority on what others should like or not like. It is a very self-centered view to believe that each of us cannot all decide for ourselves what is 'good' or 'enjoyable' to each of us. These are all opinions and we are all differnet.
I hated the Goodkind novels I read, but those who enjoyed them obviously saw them differently. Not wrongly, but differently. It's not a math problem with one answer... it's an artform that can be interpreted differently based on our likes, dislikes, life experiences, etc.... It's in the eye of the beholder. We are all different and there are books out there for all of us to enjoy.

 

[teahupoo]

I am no fan of Goodkind's SoT series, but what jumps out at me about this thread (and many other threads) is that there are a LOT of readers who feel that they know good literature from bad, good stories from bad, good writing from bad. I think we all share this to some extent since we know what we like and what we don't like. Out of this group emerges a subgroup of people who feel they know good from bad (writing, books, stories) but take it a step further to assume that anyone who disagrees with their opinion on these things just doesn't understand, is not smart enough to see, etc.... It's a pretty self-centered view of reading and enjoying fantasy novels. To some degree literature is like art and sometimes it strikes a cord with one person but not another person. I guess the trick is to be humble enough to realize that we all see and interpret things differently and no one of us is the authority on what others should like or not like. It is a very self-centered view to believe that each of us cannot all decide for ourselves what is 'good' or 'enjoyable' to each of us. These are all opinions and we are all differnet.
I hated the Goodkind novels I read, but those who enjoyed them obviously saw them differently. Not wrongly, but differently. It's not a math problem with one answer... it's an artform that can be interpreted differently based on our likes, dislikes, life experiences, etc.... It's in the eye of the beholder. We are all different and there are books out there for all of us to enjoy.

Well said Rhallva.

I myself like SoT. It was one of the first fantasy book/series i read. You may take my liking it as a naive inexperienced reader; however, I read a lot of fiction and scifi prior to my immersion into fantasy. JRR Tolkien, I read all Frank Herbert books, many of Hemingways short stories (and thoroughly dissected the symbolism and hidden meaning in his writing), Dumas Count of Monte Cristo, most Orson Scott Card and many others. So, I think I had a grasp on what good writing is. I also went on to read and love fantasy authors such as GRRM, Robert Jordan, Brandon Sanders, and Pratchett after reading SoT. If, because I like goodkind, and therefore must have terrible taste in fantasy, then what does that say about the other authors I enjoy?

I don't say Goodkind is great, but i think all the criticism is a bit much and always tends to be overboard (as the haters in this thread have pointed out). I may go back and read SoT again to see if I can spot the crapocity you all speak of.

 

[nquixote]

I am no fan of Goodkind's SoT series, but what jumps out at me about this thread (and many other threads) is that there are a LOT of readers who feel that they know good literature from bad, good stories from bad, good writing from bad. I think we all share this to some extent since we know what we like and what we don't like. Out of this group emerges a subgroup of people who feel they know good from bad (writing, books, stories) but take it a step further to assume that anyone who disagrees with their opinion on these things just doesn't understand, is not smart enough to see, etc.... It's a pretty self-centered view of reading and enjoying fantasy novels. To some degree literature is like art and sometimes it strikes a cord with one person but not another person. I guess the trick is to be humble enough to realize that we all see and interpret things differently and no one of us is the authority on what others should like or not like. It is a very self-centered view to believe that each of us cannot all decide for ourselves what is 'good' or 'enjoyable' to each of us. These are all opinions and we are all differnet.
I hated the Goodkind novels I read, but those who enjoyed them obviously saw them differently. Not wrongly, but differently. It's not a math problem with one answer... it's an artform that can be interpreted differently based on our likes, dislikes, life experiences, etc.... It's in the eye of the beholder. We are all different and there are books out there for all of us to enjoy.

Awwwwwwww. You deserve a hug. <3<3<3<3<3

(Goodkind still sux tho! )

 

[kirk]

I also went on to read and love fantasy authors such as GRRM, Robert Jordan, Brandon Sanderson, and Pratchett after reading SoT. If, because I like Goodkind, and therefore must have terrible taste in fantasy, then what does that say about the other authors I enjoy?

They are also quite awful, except for Martin.

 

[Roland 85]

Oh, it was about time for the "we're all different, everyone has different tastes, and it's all subjective" spiel. I am amazed it came so late, really. I am not getting into another "nobody can decide what's good and what's bad" argument. Yeah, amazing as it may be, some people do know better than others. It's not a crime to claim so, it's only a risk, cause if you don't, you end up looking stupid. But so far nobody is doing anything to disprove my words, the only thing I see are knee-jerk cliche "EVERYTHING IS SUBJECTIVE, WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE, I HAVE A RIGHT TO LIKE WHAT I WANT!!!" reactions.