Martin, Erikson, Jordan..Am I missing something??

I know there are people that say reading thousands of pages shouldn't be necessary to get a distinct idea about a series but I think in the case of Jordan and Erikson reading till the end of book two would be the recommended way to go to make sure with a high degree of certainty that an adequate glimpse of what these authors have to offer is shown—unless you are really allergic to their writing style.
 
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[...] I noticed that the series that seem to be the most integral, or essential are George Martin's Song of Ice and Fire, Robert Jordan's Wheel Of Time (mixed reviews but still essential) and Steven Erikson's Malazan series.

I haven't been able to make it through the first 100 pages of any of these first books without losing interest, yet I find myself devouring Terry Brooks' Shannara series without being able to put them down. Am I missing something? Is it just a matter of taste?

Well...nobody's perfect, and Martin, Jordan and Erikson are not the Greatest Writers in the world. Erikson can be wordy, Jordan can be cliche and repetitive and Martin is apt to ramble. And that is the very short synopsis. They did however put on paper some of the greatest ideas, worlds, characters and epic events ever. Others are (much) better at straightforward storytelling (which sounds easier than it is). And as much as I like Erikson, judged purely on technique ('how well are the sentences crafted'), he doesn't hold a candle to the likes of Leiber or Wolfe.

So yea, it is a matter of taste - and your willingness to forgive the flaws in order to discover the beauty.

Cheers,

Sfinx.
 
Well...nobody's perfect, and Martin, Jordan and Erikson are not the Greatest Writers in the world. Erikson can be wordy, Jordan can be cliche and repetitive and Martin is apt to ramble. And that is the very short synopsis. They did however put on paper some of the greatest ideas, worlds, characters and epic events ever. Others are (much) better at straightforward storytelling (which sounds easier than it is). And as much as I like Erikson, judged purely on technique ('how well are the sentences crafted'), he doesn't hold a candle to the likes of Leiber or Wolfe.

So yea, it is a matter of taste - and your willingness to forgive the flaws in order to discover the beauty.

Cheers,

Sfinx.

Well said Sfinx. Erikson is no Wolfe. He is however a brilliant world builder. That is the only aspect of The Malazan Books I found compelling. Martin is good but personally I think a bit overrated. Jordan....Let's just say I am not a fan of Wheel of Time on any level. No beauty to be discovered there. Jordan is so G Rated. I can understand why Sanderson was selected to finish out the series.

But Gene Wolfe they are most certainly not.
 
Wolfe is a brilliant writer but he also isn't suited to every taste. He isn't the type of author you read before bed or on a plane, it's a far more ponderous read. You have to take in every detail and nuance to understand how good his work really is.

Lol I was just mentioning a couple of crappier, catchier bands.
I don't really want to get back on the music thing, but to call Kings of Leon crappy means you have only really heard Only by the Night, which while being fairly lame isn't that bad. Go listen to Youth and Young Manhood or Holy Roller Novocaine from before they started to edge a bit more mainstream.
 
Jordans WOT and Eriksons Malazan both use a similar mechanism in that they begin writing as if you know everything that is going on within their respective worlds. I remember (distantly) starting WOT and constantly having to flick to the glossary at the back to try and make some sense of what was being written about, and even then struggling to do so, but as it comes together and you start to 'get' it, so the story begins to unfurl and away you go. As they say, nothing worthwhile comes easy.

Eriksons first is similar in that the characters, events, and world are kinda already in place before you as the reader arrive, and there is no exposition to help you along. Martin is a little more forgiving, but has a cast of thousands to introduce as he sets the stage before they all start to tie together.

Well, I would actually put Jordan on the opposite end of the spectrum from Erikson with respect to exposition. We hear about a dozen times what "The Dragon" is before it ever becomes relevant to the story. Whitecloaks are likewise explained ad nauseum before we ever meet the first one. Whitecloaks also basically drop off the face of the planet without any explanation by book 5 or 6.

In Erikson, a dude with a characteristic white cloak would've just shown up, muttered some vague hate speech concerning one of the dozen magic systems in the world, killed a major character and promptly left the series forever. It's just up to the reader to wonder and guess what he was all about, and then either be surprised in that guess or not when someone like him shows up again to kill someone else.

Martin is a bit different. Sure, you are exposed to many different viewpoints at once, but the only one of the characters who hasn't met all of the others is Dany. (And her sections anyway were originally written as their own novella.) For me, this makes questions such as who I'm rooting for and what outcome I want much easier to answer. Most of the viewpoint characters come from one family. Viewed this way, Martin is less frustrating to me than some other reads that are considered easier, like the Way of Kings. That book has only two viewpoint characters, but their actions don't affect the other immediately in such a way that would allow a reader to reposit all reader empathy into one single pool. Martin's work does, at least initially. I prefer the sort of clarity in the way Martin did it, but some find it more difficult to read.

So when recommending to someone who enjoyed LOTR but is relatively inexperienced otherwise, I'd say Jordan first, Martin second and Erikson last. But any one of these I think you can skip if you really don't like them.
 
Well, I would actually put Jordan on the opposite end of the spectrum from Erikson with respect to exposition. We hear about a dozen times what "The Dragon" is before it ever becomes relevant to the story. Whitecloaks are likewise explained ad nauseum before we ever meet the first one. Whitecloaks also basically drop off the face of the planet without any explanation by book 5 or 6.

In Erikson, a dude with a characteristic white cloak would've just shown up, muttered some vague hate speech concerning one of the dozen magic systems in the world, killed a major character and promptly left the series forever. It's just up to the reader to wonder and guess what he was all about, and then either be surprised in that guess or not when someone like him shows up again to kill someone else.

Martin is a bit different. Sure, you are exposed to many different viewpoints at once, but the only one of the characters who hasn't met all of the others is Dany. (And her sections anyway were originally written as their own novella.) For me, this makes questions such as who I'm rooting for and what outcome I want much easier to answer. Most of the viewpoint characters come from one family. Viewed this way, Martin is less frustrating to me than some other reads that are considered easier, like the Way of Kings. That book has only two viewpoint characters, but their actions don't affect the other immediately in such a way that would allow a reader to reposit all reader empathy into one single pool. Martin's work does, at least initially. I prefer the sort of clarity in the way Martin did it, but some find it more difficult to read.

So when recommending to someone who enjoyed LOTR but is relatively inexperienced otherwise, I'd say Jordan first, Martin second and Erikson last. But any one of these I think you can skip if you really don't like them.

Perfect example of Erikson there. I have said it over and over Malazan is Cultural Anthropology set in a fantasy world. It is a book about world building. There really isn't a story there. The story IS the world. Everything else functions as either place holders or vehicles to continually build the history and mythology of the cultures within his world.

For someone who had just finished reading LOTR and absolutely had to pick from these three authors Martin would be the only logical choice. I think they would find Jordan highly derivative and so similar to LOTR that it would be a waste of time. Erikson kind of has a love/hate thing going on. Either you really dig Malazan or it bores the heck out of you. The first three books in ASOIAF are very good. The only problem there being that A Feast for Crows is rubbish and the never ending waiting game with ADWD.

Honestly I think someone new to the genre should start off with Tad Williams. I think the Shadowmarch series is extremely well written but light enough to keep the reader's attention. I wouldn't recommend someone new to Fantasy jumping into Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn that is a far more complex work.
 
For someone who had just finished reading LOTR and absolutely had to pick from these three authors Martin would be the only logical choice. I think they would find Jordan highly derivative and so similar to LOTR that it would be a waste of time. Erikson kind of has a love/hate thing going on. Either you really dig Malazan or it bores the heck out of you. The first three books in ASOIAF are very good. The only problem there being that A Feast for Crows is rubbish and the never ending waiting game with ADWD.

Other than in the scheme of things, books that seem similar are often complained about the minority. Most would actually enjoy reading more of the same or similar. That's why we have countless threads asking about "Something similar to" or "Something like..."
 
Perfect example of Erikson there. I have said it over and over Malazan is Cultural Anthropology set in a fantasy world. It is a book about world building. There really isn't a story there. The story IS the world. Everything else functions as either place holders or vehicles to continually build the history and mythology of the cultures within his world.

Yeah, I agree. I just would've liked Erikson a lot more if the cultural discovery wasn't left so much up to guessing. Something happens because of a cultural motive, and you're just forced to make assumptions about what world forces could've caused it and why, and then you spend several volumes guessing about whether your assumptions are right. Then, you find out that what seemed to be a self-evident assumption was wrong in a big way.

I can appreciate the skill used there, but I agree that it's not for the casual reader.

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That, and half the forces at play you're initally shown through some sort of act of violence or sexual assault. Nothing against graphic themes - I think that there is a certain realism to them - but the monotony says something. Maybe people will only care about the world they're being shown if something fundamental, like life, is always at stake. Or maybe it's just the easiest way. I'm not sure.
 
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Other than in the scheme of things, books that seem similar are often complained about the minority. Most would actually enjoy reading more of the same or similar. That's why we have countless threads asking about "Something similar to" or "Something like..."

Good point there are a crazy amount of those threads. I guess I am in the minority then. Then next book I read I prefer to be different than the one I just finished. This could make another topic entirely.

*daps* on the Hoffman update. I am in the minority on that one too but man I enjoyed The Left Hand of God.
 
Third Eye, how much of WoT have you read? I'm guessing one book if that? As someone who has read 12 books of WoT and 4 books of aSoIaF I will say aSoIaF seems more derivative of WoT than Wot is derivative of LotR.
 
I didn't read the whole thread - so I apologize if I'm repeating something.

I was thru book 7 of WoT when I decided to give it the heave. I started and stopped Martin twice, and haven't had the inkling to pick up Malazan stuff based on how I see it described by others. I think your initial distaste is obviously not "lack of experience" in SFF or "Not getting it"... and may have everything to do with the multi-subplot, multi-character, tedium of the books themselves. Jordan takes 4 pages to describe a meal given to a character in a tent, and then 5 more to get thru it. And it was simply gruel.

Shannara starts off action and just goes ba-ls-out until the end. Dresden pretty much does, too. Nothing wrong with preferring that over something else. You're not missing anything. In movies, I prefer Raiders of the Lost Ark over Sophie's Choice, My Left Foot and Schindler's List. I'd watch Kung Fu Hustle a hundred times before I'd rent Casablanca. (yes, I said it!)

And it's why I prefer Dave Duncan and his ilk to Martin and his. There are too many choices in SFF to suffer through something you don't think you'll enjoy just because other people thumbs up it.
 
Third Eye, how much of WoT have you read? I'm guessing one book if that? As someone who has read 12 books of WoT and 4 books of aSoIaF I will say aSoIaF seems more derivative of WoT than Wot is derivative of LotR.

I read up through A Crown of Swords actually. I lost interest fairly quickly but I stuck it out for curiosity's sake. After that the entire thing became absurd to me. Looking back on it I can say it was a massive waste of time and I consider it to be among the worst fantasy series ever written.
 
Third Eye, how much of WoT have you read? I'm guessing one book if that? As someone who has read 12 books of WoT and 4 books of aSoIaF I will say aSoIaF seems more derivative of WoT than Wot is derivative of LotR.

Except aSoFaI has no magic or one power, no shire or two rivers, no wizards or Aes Sedai, no ring or dark one to destroy, no orcs or trollocs to run from, and no Frodo or Rand to get all angsty about the burden they bear.

I mean, the copyright suit of Tolkein's heirs v. Jordan's heirs over The Eye of the World would probably get past summary judgment, the standard being whether a "reasonable observer would clearly recognize plaintiff's protected expression in defendant's work". It's clearly a derivative work.

Martin's stuff however, is seen as being taken from the War of the Roses, and admittedly so. The Starks are York and the Lannisters are Lancaster.

The difference between all of these and the things that they're taken from are the intangible human elements - romance, feeling and everything else that makes art art. We don't demand that every writer come up with an entirely original plot. So, there's really no point in saying what copies what.
 
Steven Erikson's Malazan series = WORST BOOKS EVER WRITTEN BY SOMEONE WHO CAN'T WRITE.
 
Steven Erikson's Malazan series = WORST BOOKS EVER WRITTEN BY SOMEONE WHO CAN'T WRITE.

Coming from someone who has only read GOTM. If you had done a little research, or even read this thread, you would know that GOTM is not a good representation of the whole series. I understand that Malazan is not for everyone and I can see why plenty of people don't like it but this is one of the few where I think you have to read past the first book before saying the whole series is crap. Lots of people think GOTM is seriously lacking, alot less people dislike the series.
 
Well, I would actually put Jordan on the opposite end of the spectrum from Erikson with respect to exposition. We hear about a dozen times what "The Dragon" is before it ever becomes relevant to the story. Whitecloaks are likewise explained ad nauseum before we ever meet the first one. Whitecloaks also basically drop off the face of the planet without any explanation by book 5 or 6.

The Whitecloaks do play a (relatively) big role in Book 7 as well. They are then pushed mostly off-page afterwards due to plot reasons, but then return to prominence in 11 and 13 (where they have an absolute ton of screentime). It wasn't Jordan's plan to leave the Whitecloaks hanging out on a limb like that for so long, but he just manages to pull it off, due to the amount of stuff going on elsewhere.

Third Eye, how much of WoT have you read? I'm guessing one book if that? As someone who has read 12 books of WoT and 4 books of aSoIaF I will say aSoIaF seems more derivative of WoT than Wot is derivative of LotR.

Yes, you do like to push this one despite it being unsubstantiated. Since GRRM hasn't read WoT and began writing ASoIaF before the third book of WoT came out, I can't see how it could be derivative of WoT. It is derivative, by GRRM's own admission, of Tad Williams's Memory, Sorrow and Thorn (in being an epic fantasy for adult readers) and indeed (in its treatment of magic only) The Lord of the Rings, although more in atmosphere and some thematic elements than plot ones. It isn't a quest story, for starters.
 
Yes, you do like to push this one despite it being unsubstantiated. Since GRRM hasn't read WoT and began writing ASoIaF before the third book of WoT came out, I can't see how it could be derivative of WoT. It is derivative, by GRRM's own admission, of Tad Williams's Memory, Sorrow and Thorn (in being an epic fantasy for adult readers) and indeed (in its treatment of magic only) The Lord of the Rings, although more in atmosphere and some thematic elements than plot ones. It isn't a quest story, for starters.

Wert I am beginning to think you and Martin are boys (friends not sure how that translates in the UK). Do you guys Skype, have a beer and watch Giants games? lol You are in the know. Joking aside I found what you said about GRRM finding inspiration in William's Memory, Sorrow and Thorn really interesting. Somehow Tad Williams seems to fall through the cracks anytime a discussion pops up about the very best writers in Fantasy. Tad Williams is personally one of my favorite writers in any genre.
 
Wert I am beginning to think you and Martin are boys (friends not sure how that translates in the UK). Do you guys Skype, have a beer and watch Giants games? lol You are in the know. Joking aside I found what you said about GRRM finding inspiration in William's Memory, Sorrow and Thorn really interesting. Somehow Tad Williams seems to fall through the cracks anytime a discussion pops up about the very best writers in Fantasy. Tad Williams is personally one of my favorite writers in any genre.

I think one of the reasons Williams tends to fall through the cracks is he is kind of boring. He will spend more time on descriptions then Jordan. Dragonbone Chair takes forever to get going. Some interesting stuff there, i've read Memory, Sorrow and Thorn and Otherland, but I don't find it as engaging as ASOIAF or early WOT.
 
I think one of the reasons Williams tends to fall through the cracks is he is kind of boring. He will spend more time on descriptions then Jordan. Dragonbone Chair takes forever to get going. Some interesting stuff there, i've read Memory, Sorrow and Thorn and Otherland, but I don't find it as engaging as ASOIAF or early WOT.

You and I are in agreement. I really, really gave Dragonbone Chair a shot but about three quarters into the book I put it down, stopped reading. That was AFTER it had 'got going' and I realized that even at its most action-packed I found it kinda dull. Maybe I'll give it a shot again later but right now I'm of the opinion that Williams is boring.

Oh, and Third Eye, the suggestion that Martin is derivative of Jordan is a silly one. They are derivative of each other only insofar as all of epic fantasy is derivative of Tolkien.
 
Wert I am beginning to think you and Martin are boys (friends not sure how that translates in the UK). Do you guys Skype, have a beer and watch Giants games? lol You are in the know. Joking aside I found what you said about GRRM finding inspiration in William's Memory, Sorrow and Thorn really interesting. Somehow Tad Williams seems to fall through the cracks anytime a discussion pops up about the very best writers in Fantasy. Tad Williams is personally one of my favorite writers in any genre.

I'm a moderator on Westeros.org and have met GRRM a couple of times and swapped emails a few times. Not really friends though, due to the whole living 5,000 miles apart thing ;)
 

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