Science fact thread

There is a pretty detailed proposal for just such an endeavor, amazingly enough. The idea does seem to make some sense, after all, explorers of ages gone by had no real expectations of ever returning to their homelands, most probably never did.

Are there people in the world today who would be just bold, daring and crazy enough to seize the opportunity of legendary immortality by becoming the first humans to colonize another planet?


During the Golden Age of Exploration the expectation was of glory and riches. Explorers weren't furthering humanity, they were raping it. The reason for setting up a colony was to dominate the native people and send back bankable resources... which brings us to Mars. There is no reason to colonize Mars.
 
During the Golden Age of Exploration the expectation was of glory and riches. Explorers weren't furthering humanity, they were raping it. The reason for setting up a colony was to dominate the native people and send back bankable resources... which brings us to Mars. There is no reason to colonize Mars.

Wow! I can't believe it. Sparrow is against the idea. Shocking.

Yeah, too bad there are no "natives" there, so nasty old humanity could rape and dominate them.

(There seems to be no reason to expect a serious or considered reply from Sparrow, so this type of response is the only one required.)
 
Wow! I can't believe it. Sparrow is against the idea. Shocking.

Yeah, too bad there are no "natives" there, so nasty old humanity could rape and dominate them.

(There seems to be no reason to expect a serious or considered reply from Sparrow, so this type of response is the only one required.)


It was a serious reply.

Private industry isn't interested in Space, not in low Earth orbit, not on the Moon, and certainly not on Mars. The idea of funding a oneway trip to an incredibly unforgiving planet and goodness forbid "colonizing" it, is beyond silly.

And I ask you, why do we need to go to Mars?
 
Perhaps these rocky economic times mean it is now time to get really imaginative and innovative to achieve a manned mission to Mars - how about a one-way trip, completely financed by private industry?

Are there people in the world today who would be just bold, daring and crazy enough to seize the opportunity of legendary immortality by becoming the first humans to colonize another planet?

I think so. They would have to give up a lot, but still i think there are people who would do it, just for the sheer ballsiness of the whole idea.

This is why the Flash Gordon and Captain Kirk type characters appeal to certain kinds of people. It produces a lot of entertaining but fundamentally dumb science fiction.

It's about doing stuff for the sake of ego rather than because it has a significant degree of scientific rationality. Is part of our economic problem the fact the SCIENTISTS haven't been talking about planned obsolescence for the last 50 years? Shouldn't they know that the laws of physics don't change style every year and that constantly redesigning cars was STUPID. But cars that look different are so BALLSY!

psik
 
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It was a serious reply.

Private industry isn't interested in Space, not in low Earth orbit, not on the Moon, and certainly not on Mars. The idea of funding a oneway trip to an incredibly unforgiving planet and goodness forbid "colonizing" it, is beyond silly.

And I ask you, why do we need to go to Mars?

Private industry not interested in space? That is provably false. I gave you just one example of it. Richard Branson. There are many, many more.

But you are clearly not open to the idea of space exploration at all. Why should I even bother debating you about this? Your mind is made up.

I get the feeling you are so disillusioned with mankind, you prefer the big asteroid that would send us off the stage like the dinosaurs. Getting the human race into space on a regular basis would only reduce those chances for extinction.
 
This is why the Flash Gordon and Captain Kirk type characters appeal to certain kinds of people. It produces a lot of entertaining but fundamentally dumb science fiction.

It's about doing stuff for the sake of ego rather than because it has a significant degree of scientific rationality.

One-way trip psikey. Sorry, that is going to take balls. Are there scientists willing to give up everything they have on Earth, for science? I am sure there are, but the people that do so are going to need quite a bit of Captain Kirk bravado.

Not to mention, the entertainment value of a project like this is going to be essential, if it is going to be privately funded. Or are you telling me, that if something like this project actually happened, you would not tune in since it would remind you too much of hokey Flash Gordon flicks? :D
 
Or are you telling me, that if something like this project actually happened, you would not tune in since it would remind you too much of hokey Flash Gordon flicks? :D

I would tune in but not because of any Flash Gordon nostalgia.

I would probably be betting they would all be dead in less than 10 years. Depending on the inventory sent with them maybe 5 years.

What is the total number of people that you are suggesting go on this expensive debacle? I bet private industry would not finance it. The return would be too long term even if it worked.

psik
 
What is the total number of people that you are suggesting go on this expensive debacle? I bet private industry would not finance it. The return would be too long term even if it worked.

psik

From the link I posted:

The first colonists to Mars wouldn’t go in "cold." Robotic probes sent on ahead would establish necessities such as an energy source (such as a small nuclear reactor augmented by solar panels), enough food for two years, the basics for creating home-grown agriculture, one or more rover vehicles and a tool-kit for carrying out essential engineering and maintenance work. In addition, the scientific equipment needed for the colonists to do important research work should be part of the preceding unmanned mission. All this equipment could easily be put into place using current technology before the astronauts set out. The first human contingent would rely heavily on resources that can be produced from Mars such as water, nutrients, and shelter (such as in form of lava tube caves). They also would be continuously resupplied from Earth with necessities that could not be produced from the resources available on Mars. This semi-autonomous phase might last for decades, perhaps even centuries before the size and sophistication of the Mars colony enabled it to be self-sustaining.

The first human contingent would consist of a crew of four
, ideally (and if the budget permits) distributed between two two-man space craft to allow for some mission redundancy such as in the Viking mission or for the Mars Exploration Rovers.

If it is not too much trouble, I suggest reading the link. It might answer some of your questions.

http://journalofcosmology.com/Mars108.html

Look, this is just an idea. It is innovative and creative, and I had not thought about it before. I thought it might be worth exploring.
 
This arguement again huh? its been a few months I guess.

Space colonization is pretty much unacheivable for the next few hundred years. The energy, funding and overall cost/benefit ratio for such projects all point in the direction of not-anytime-soon.

I cant see it happening until land or resources start become pretty scarce on earth.
 
In addition, the scientific equipment needed for the colonists to do important research work should be part of the preceding unmanned mission. All this equipment could easily be put into place using current technology before the astronauts set out. The first human contingent would rely heavily on resources that can be produced from Mars such as water, nutrients, and shelter (such as in form of lava tube caves). They also would be continuously resupplied from Earth with necessities that could not be produced from the resources available on Mars. This semi-autonomous phase might last for decades, perhaps even centuries before the size and sophistication of the Mars colony enabled it to be self-sustaining.

I read the Mars Trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson in the 90s.

I am not saying what you are describing is not technologically feasible. The problem is the HUGE cost with current technology.

The mission's total cost -- about $600 million -- may have to be deferred from NASA's budget, Weiler said, but would not cause the cancellation of any other mission at NASA. The Mars rovers are an "agency priority," he said. The second rover costs about $200 million, half of the $300 million to $450 million to build and launch the first.
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/mars_rovers_000810.html

So if it cost that much to send a couple of little robots to Mars what you are suggesting would go into the tens if not hundreds of billions. Ain't gonna happen.

psik
 
Private industry not interested in space? That is provably false. I gave you just one example of it. Richard Branson. There are many, many more.

sheeesh... c'mon, is that the very best you can come up with?.. a tourist business that caters to the fabulously wealthy among us. And there are most definitely not "many, many more" companies interested in exploiting space for profit. If there was you would be able to give better examples than Branson's latest ego trip... which btw, doesn't actually get people into Space proper.

But you are clearly not open to the idea of space exploration at all. Why should I even bother debating you about this? Your mind is made up.

I never said that.
What I have said in the past is that our current priorities are here on Earth.
It's not our time to colonize Mars or any other planet, we should be building the foundations for saving our own planet... which btw, is the only planet we know of that can sustain human life.

I get the feeling you are so disillusioned with mankind, you prefer the big asteroid that would send us off the stage like the dinosaurs. Getting the human race into space on a regular basis would only reduce those chances for extinction.


This is the typical scare tactic NASA uses to get ever more money for ill conceived projects, which btw, usually don't do a darn thing for our long term chances at survival.
 
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I read the Mars Trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson in the 90s.

I am not saying what you are describing is not technologically feasible. The problem is the HUGE cost with current technology.


http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/mars_rovers_000810.html

So if it cost that much to send a couple of little robots to Mars what you are suggesting would go into the tens if not hundreds of billions. Ain't gonna happen.

psik


The real problem with colonizing a planet that is essentially totally inhospitable to mankind, is that the technology doesn't yet exist to even make it a possibility. The long term experiments they've done with Earthbound biospheres have all ended badly. Imagine that, some folks think we could build a closed-loop system on Mars when in fact every attempt to do so on Earth has failed. The best closed-loop system we've been able to manage is our nuclear sub fleet... which are very cool, btw.

Some people want to hate me because I remind them that there are limitations to science and technology?
 
Some people want to hate me because I remind them that there are limitations to science and technology?

I don't like that term "suspension of disbelief". I prefer "reigning in of disbelief". It is more variable rather than just on or off. I think some people that say they like science fiction don't really like the science enough to learn to be realistic about it. If th US hadn't screwed up the economy with stupid consumerism for the last 40 years I might be more interested in the Mars thing. It costs $50,000 to put one pound But we have to figure out how to cope with the misuse of technology for decades. Mars is out of the question for at least 20 years.

psik
 
:)Why would we want to colonise worlds which are inhospitable? I could be wrong here, but wasn't there something on the news about the Moon having water? This might seem strange, but we (and most other life here on earth) require water as a basic necessity to survive. The biggest growth of habitat on planet earth is desert- i.e. a place without water and many millions of people live in these places. Thus water could become the 'black gold' of the 21st century. Perhaps this might give people motivation to colonise moons or whatever.

Also I like the view that we have to be reminded of our scientific limitations. True. But who would have thought 100 years ago that we would be able to clone animals, split the atom and the other advances which we seem to take for granted (e.g. internet) which for better or worse have profoundly changed society and human interaction etc; indeed 1,000 years ago the general science consensus was that the sun revolved around the earth and we were all fighting with swords, bows and arrows. So how can we be so pompus as to think things won't be different 100 or a 1,000 years from know?

I am optimistic enough to think we will just about survive as a species and that, for good or bad, we shall one day "walk amongst the stars".:)
 
I am optimistic enough to think we will just about survive as a species and that, for good or bad, we shall one day "walk amongst the stars"

I agree with that bit basically.

I'm unsure of the details because I can't possibly consider myself arrogant enough to know them, but this is coming, or my 'faith' is misplaced.

Any industry, organisation, nation state, or individual willing to contribute (within the parameters of not making things worse) gets my (qualified) support.

With respect to all the debate about money, lets not forget that the concentration of intellectual wealth (training specialists and feeding them money) generates a different kind of wealth. With space vehicle scientists and those who research the engineering of survival in extreme environments you have a whole subset of self selected people who simply aren't going to be third world dentists or build new hospitals or sort out good governance.

Fund them or don't fund them seems to be the stark choice. We can't then micromanage a specialism that refined. It's about emergent effect from that point on.

Seems to me that withholding funding, or even arguing about the best way of doling the cash out is dangerously close to the kind of mainstream politic nonsense we all seem to agree on disliking.
 
With respect to all the debate about money, lets not forget that the concentration of intellectual wealth (training specialists and feeding them money) generates a different kind of wealth. With space vehicle scientists and those who research the engineering of survival in extreme environments you have a whole subset of self selected people who simply aren't going to be third world dentists or build new hospitals or sort out good governance.

Seems to me that withholding funding, or even arguing about the best way of doling the cash out is dangerously close to the kind of mainstream politic nonsense we all seem to agree on disliking.

Well if they can't agree on and explain in detail how an airliner could destroy a skyscraper 2000 times its mass in less then 2 hours then I have trouble giving a s**t about them.

psik
 
Well if they can't agree on and explain in detail how an airliner could destroy a skyscraper 2000 times its mass in less then 2 hours then I have trouble giving a s**t about them.

psik



They have explained, in detail, how a jumbo jet can bring down a skyscraper in less than two hours. And can replicate it on computer models. The people who think the Two Towers should have tipped over rather than collapsing within the building's footprint or that the whole thing was just too neat, won't ever listen to reason or believe the official report. And btw, it was an airliner with thousands of gallons of explosive jet fuel, big difference.
 
oh my!


how did THIS get in here as a subject? Does this happen a lot round here? Even this side of the pond I seem to discuss the where's why's and wherefore's of what happened in X,Y,or Z particular cultural shock to the system that happened in the USA and may or may not have been perpetrated by the parties in question rather than looking to the highly engaging problems we have on the table at the moment.

This is probably the same cultural wool they pulled down on you all when they (mil-gov) set off 739 nuclear bombs just the other side of the mountains from Area 51 in YOUR desert and yet somehow everyone ran round for years with shotguns looking for Aliens.

...and before anyone else starts no I couldn't have done a better job at world peace myself. We'll just have to deal with it eh?
 
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Well, psik, I'm glad to say, at least you appear to have conceded this project will require cojones of steel.

I read the Mars Trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson in the 90s.

I am not saying what you are describing is not technologically feasible. The problem is the HUGE cost with current technology.

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/mars_rovers_000810.html

So if it cost that much to send a couple of little robots to Mars what you are suggesting would go into the tens if not hundreds of billions. Ain't gonna happen.

psik

The Mars Trilogy was a pretty good series. It's been a while since I read those, but I think the books start out with the initial colony already established. The First Hundred I believe are established on the planet for some time when the book begins. Someone else mentioned that they thought Robinson's idea for the original colonizing mission in that series was something like this One-Way mission we are discussing here. Can anyone confirm that?

The cost factor? In a way, what does it matter how some eccentric billionaire wants to spend their dough?

But there actually has been a govt study on the costs to a project like this: $10-15 billion is what has been estimated by a NASA group.

But that is the point of having private industry do this isn't it? Several people here have complained about the wasteful ways of "bloated entities" like NASA. Fine. Let's see if private industry can be more efficient, right?

So far, the mission amounts to US$1.1 million in seed capital that NASA's Ames Research Centre and the Pentagon's Defence Advanced Research Projects Agency hope to turn into the $11 billion the mission could cost.

Ames Director Simon Worden confirmed the studies at the Long Now Foundation's "Long Conversation" conference in San Francisco last weekend.

"We hope to inveigle some billionaires to form a Hundred Year Starship fund. The human space programme is now really aimed at settling other worlds. Twenty years ago you had to whisper that in dark bars and get fired," Worden said in remarks posted to a blog that covered the event.

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20101029/mars-manned-mission-study-101029/

Don't forget, the authors of the study estimate that the one-way nature of the mission would save 80% over a 2 way mission. That is huge.
 
The Mars Trilogy was a pretty good series. It's been a while since I read those, but I think the books start out with the initial colony already established. The First Hundred I believe are established on the planet for some time when the book begins. Someone else mentioned that they thought Robinson's idea for the original colonizing mission in that series was something like this One-Way mission we are discussing here. Can anyone confirm that?

The Mars trilogy starts off with the 100 in the ship on the way to Mars. Apparently hundreds of tons of material had already been sent and was on Mars waiting for their arrival. So this meant probably dozens of rockets had already been sent to Mars. But one of the 100 was the first man who had already been to Mars and made the trip back. So this implies far more than you are suggesting.

To me the Mars trilogy implies the existence of some kind of rocket propulsion orders of magnitude more efficient than anything we have now. Just the ship carrying the 100 was REALLY BIG! Bigger than anything we have put into or assembled in space to date.

psik
 

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