So you got strategy, mister General.

[Luya Sevrein]

Uhh. um.

The point of this thread is to ask about an assumption I've stupidly made, and to find some good character-driven fantasy series or novels.

Kay, so as an avid Martin lover, I love Fantasy that encumpases all aspects of realistic life, but I'm not afraid of the magic, the myth and I enjoy a gory few page massacre.

If I have one criticism it's the constant conversation about this, that, how the relations have changed with him, her, every noble house north of Dorne, EVERY OTHER CHAPTER.

If you're going into war, I get it. You need a plan of attack, and I like reading that. It ads realism, also maybe a few times throughout the books - every five chapts? - give us an update on who will buy what plan and what's going on. But Martin drags this stuff on for pages sometimes. It's my one hate.

It is also killing fight scenes for me, because unless they are between Rogue hedge Knights or Eastern folk all I can think of is 'Oh God, this is going to be evaluated.' It's like doing paper work.

So, when I heard Gardens of the Moon was Military-based largely, I cried.

Is it men trudging up and down with constant description and then every other page a battle plan, diplomatic relations, etc? Does someone stab smoeone and then have to file ten reports and speak with five different people about the incident? Does anything fun actually happen?

Please don't sugar coat it. If it is strategic and formulaic, it is. It's just not my genre.

I guess it's just not my cup of tea.

While you're at it, what's some amazing character-or-myth driven fantasy you guys have enjoyed?

Please and thank you.

 

[Aktunka]

The Malazan series is very military driven in the sense that many of the main characters are soldiers and such, but most of it is focused more on the battles and interpersonal relationships within the squads. Not a ton in the diplomatic range going on in most cases, unless you consider explosions, magic, and swordplay to be a form of diplomacy.

In other words, generally it doesn't get bogged down talking about the mundane paperwork and stuff from the general's point of view. I seem to recall some relatively quick battle planning, again, at a squad level, at some points, but not much of it overall.

That is what I remember.

 

[Luya Sevrein]

The Malazan series is very military driven in the sense that many of the main characters are soldiers and such, but most of it is focused more on the battles and interpersonal relationships within the squads. Not a ton in the diplomatic range going on in most cases, unless you consider explosions, magic, and swordplay to be a form of diplomacy.

In other words, generally it doesn't get bogged down talking about the mundane paperwork and stuff from the general's point of view. I seem to recall some relatively quick battle planning, again, at a squad level, at some points, but not much of it overall.

That is what I remember.

Thanks. : D That's such a weight off my mind.

 

[Aktunka]

Well, don't hold me to there being NO battle planning at all, because I am sure that there is some of it, I just wanted to make it a bit more clear that it doesn't get caught up in it...from what I recall!

 

[Luya Sevrein]

Well, don't hold me to there being NO battle planning at all, because I am sure that there is some of it, I just wanted to make it a bit more clear that it doesn't get caught up in it...from what I recall!

It's fine if there's SOME. Every chapter, or two, or five, a few paragraphs, a few pages even. I just hate the large chunks of it very frequently. : (

I think authors are becoming scared of not including enough and having their work taken lightly.

Just like I'd hate whole chapters based on smutty romance or a twenty-page, over descriptive fight scene.

 

[saintjon]

No I can think of a bunch of parts just off the top of my head from Malazan that will probably drive her bonkers. I think by the time you got partway through Memories of Ice you'd be ready to hang yourself by what you're saying.

No diplomacy? Most of the plot of book 1 and 3 is driven by the wrangling between the Bridgeburners and Caladan Brood factions. Not much battle-planning? Okay so it's not ALL exhaustive pondering by this general or that but there's an awful lot of pages spent before most of the major setpieces of the story where it's laid out what a tremendously daunting tactical nightmare is before the characters. That's how I remember it anyways.

 

[BreakLater]

Uhh. um.

The point of this thread is to ask about an assumption I've stupidly made, and to find some good character-driven fantasy series or novels.

Kay, so as an avid Martin lover, I love Fantasy that encumpases all aspects of realistic life, but I'm not afraid of the magic, the myth and I enjoy a gory few page massacre.

If I have one criticism it's the constant conversation about this, that, how the relations have changed with him, her, every noble house north of Dorne, EVERY OTHER CHAPTER.

If you're going into war, I get it. You need a plan of attack, and I like reading that. It ads realism, also maybe a few times throughout the books - every five chapts? - give us an update on who will buy what plan and what's going on. But Martin drags this stuff on for pages sometimes. It's my one hate.

It is also killing fight scenes for me, because unless they are between Rogue hedge Knights or Eastern folk all I can think of is 'Oh God, this is going to be evaluated.' It's like doing paper work.

So, when I heard Gardens of the Moon was Military-based largely, I cried.

Is it men trudging up and down with constant description and then every other page a battle plan, diplomatic relations, etc? Does someone stab smoeone and then have to file ten reports and speak with five different people about the incident? Does anything fun actually happen?

Please don't sugar coat it. If it is strategic and formulaic, it is. It's just not my genre.

I guess it's just not my cup of tea.

While you're at it, what's some amazing character-or-myth driven fantasy you guys have enjoyed?

Please and thank you.

Gardens of the Moon doesn't go into detail on epic battles and strategy but Deadhouse Gates certainly does. And I love it!!

All of the Duiker sections in Deadhouse Gates place you front and center for the grueling trail of tears that was the Chain of Dogs. Lots of strategy is discussed. Lots of detail is given of the battles. Lots of diplomacy and politics.

Can't speak to the other Malazan books because I haven't quite finished Deadhouse Gates yet, but I'd say this looks like a trend. If you don't like that kind of thing, stay away.

Though I'm not sure I can recall having a problem with this when I read Martin. Does he really go into such dry detail about the battles? I don't remember that at all.

 

[Sfinx]

Is it men trudging up and down with constant description and then every other page a battle plan, diplomatic relations, etc? Does someone stab smoeone and then have to file ten reports and speak with five different people about the incident?

Quite a few battles, a lot of stabbing and even more trudging. But not a lot of planning (most of the general-like types seem to have a penchant for keeping their plans to themselves). Formal reporting / debriefing not a popular pastime either. Incidents & accidents are being discussed - but typically in a bar or at a campfire, dripping with cynicism.

Does anything fun actually happen?

Haha, in some books: yes. In others: no.

While you're at it, what's some amazing character-or-myth driven fantasy you guys have enjoyed?

Riddlemaster of Hed (McKillip) might be something you'll enjoy - I know I did.

Cheers,

Sfinx.

 

[TheEvilKing]

Though I'm not sure I can recall having a problem with this when I read Martin. Does he really go into such dry detail about the battles? I don't remember that at all.

Me either. There's plenty of politics and some general strategy of war discussed, but Martin doesn't go too in-depth into battle tactics like a Bakker or a Kearney.

I'm unclear about the OP's gripe.

 

[Luya Sevrein]

Me either. There's plenty of politics and some general strategy of war discussed, but Martin doesn't go too in-depth into battle tactics like a Bakker or a Kearney.

I'm unclear about the OP's gripe.

From what I can remember it was quite rare, but when it happened it happened thick and slow. I thnik towards the end of Kings, all of Davos' chapters in Kings with Stannis, quite a lot of that was constantly-changnig, explained strategy. Tyrion and Catelyn's were battle strategy through a lot of Kings. By Swords, I wasn't so bothered because so much was going down and what strategy was epxlained was needed and fitted in well.

Yeah... maybe it was just Knigs.

 

[chokipokilo]

While you're at it, what's some amazing character-or-myth driven fantasy you guys have enjoyed?

Please and thank you.

Knowing nothing about what you already have read...

Hobb's series'
JV Jones "Sword of Shadows"
Anything by Guy Gavriel Kay
Rothfuss "The Name of the Wind"
Lynch "Lies of Locke Lamora"
Wolfe "Latro in the Mist"

...should fit the bill.

 

[Luya Sevrein]

Knowing nothing about what you already have read...

Hobb's series'
JV Jones "Sword of Shadows"
Anything by Guy Gavriel Kay
Rothfuss "The Name of the Wind"
Lynch "Lies of Locke Lamora"
Wolfe "Latro in the Mist"

...should fit the bill.

Thank you very much for the recommendations. I've read Assasin's Apprentice in the Farseer Trilogy and it seems like my type of thing so far. So much character work! I've heard some good things so I'm excited.

 

[oasis seeker]

Though I'm not sure I can recall having a problem with this when I read Martin. Does he really go into such dry detail about the battles? I don't remember that at all.

Me either.

As a matter of fact, I remember being slightly surprised at how he structured his narrative so that the reader didn't find out results of battles etc until later on, and even then it was usually through other characters who weren't even there.

I found it cool and different from the usual scenario where the participants of the battle talk about the results immediately afterward.

 

[Luya Sevrein]

I found it cool and different from the usual scenario where the participants of the battle talk about the results immediately afterward.

I don't understand?

I can think of a few examples off my head. Tyrion wakes up after the Battle of the Blackwater, heads to speak with Tywin, meets two people and Tywin who then explain the battle to him and they discuss it.

Robb and his men after the Whispering Wood, Catelyn about her son's battles while on her travels, Dany at the sacking of Mereen - was it Mereen?

The only reason it seems less I guess is due to chapters being from different POVs, thus spacing. Sometimes, something is explained in one chapter that doesn't effect that chapter's character, so can be explained briefly. That was clever.

Heck. I'm arguing partly against Martin. Never thought this'd happen.

Ah well, it's all subjective. I might notice it more because it's not my thing.

 

[Steve Moss]

Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos has quite a bit of character development over the course of a dozen plus books. As does Jim Butcher's Harry Dresden.