First novel?

[A. Lynn]

I don't know about you, but I tend to be long-winded in my first drafts, saying the same thing two or three times sometimes.

Afterall, how many times can we rape the thesaurus? How many times can we mention how beautiful and sparkly Edward Cullen is? Then... at the very end of the storyline, can we milk it even more by rewriting the same story through the eyes of a different character and then release it with the title of "Beating a Dead Horse" or something to that effect.

Alright, I suppose the message that I see here is be true to yourself because there may certainly be something there that the market wants from you that you will never give birth to if you're trying to go through the same cookie cutter as everybody else.

The bright side to Stephanie Meyers? We all have hope after all... Which reminds me, I have a vampire-genre post to make.

 

[Asimovking]

So no advice on how much it costs to self E-Publish or how long it takes to shop a novel to publishers?

P.S. Stephanie Myers should be put on trial. It can't get any worse than vampires that sparkle in the sun!

 

[hippokrene]

I sincerely hope nobody crowns me with the ignorance cap, however, I am not convinced that I truly know what "secondary world fantasy" is. Will somebody illuminate me?

Dracula? That's a fantasy set in our world.
Lord of the Rings? That's a fantasy set in another world. A... secondary world.

Secondary world fiction tends to be longer because 1) one often wants to convey the details specific to that world, and 2) most epic fantasy is secondary world fantasy.

 

[KatG]

All epic fantasy is secondary world fantasy. The problem is that we've abused the stuffing out of the word epic, and so some of us have started using secondary world fantasy to be clearer. A secondary world fantasy is, as hippokrene said, a story that takes place in a world that is not Earth or an alternate form of Earth.

if you're trying to go through the same cookie cutter as everybody else.

Which cookie cutter would that be? The market depends on variety; therefore automatically assuming that publishers don't want your novel because it has X to it is not a good game to play.

So no advice on how much it costs to self E-Publish or how long it takes to shop a novel to publishers?

It varies widely. Everybody's experience is different. To get a good estimate on self-publishing, you can go and see what Amazon, the Nook at Barnes & Noble and Smashwords have as terms for e-publication. You'll also have to decide if you want to hire a freelance editor, copy-editor, book cover designer, etc., which effects costs. If you're doing print or print on demand as well, that's a whole other kettle of fish. Some authors snag a publisher after a few months of going out with a book, and others take years. Response times are slow, but then a sale can happen fast. So we can't really answer your question because it depends on the book, luck, economic conditions at the time, etc.

P.S. Stephanie Myers should be put on trial. It can't get any worse than vampires that sparkle in the sun!

Everybody moans about a lack of originality, cookie cutter molds and cliches. Meyers having sparkling vampires was completely original. And unless you're writing YA romance, Meyers book has got nothing to do with you. Even if you are writing YA romance, Meyers helps you get sales through symbiosis. If you are writing adult fantasy, Meyers isn't who you should be concentrating on. It doesn't matter if her vampires are broody emos or monstrous killers -- both are in the marketplace on a regular basis and were long before Meyers came on the scene. What you're really complaining about is that a bunch of teenage girls like the characters of Bella and Edward. They also like Justin Bieber, unicorns and five inch plastic heels, and no reason why they shouldn't. Deal with it.

And related to the thread topic, Meyers books were quite long, so again, publishers are not necessarily adverse to length and it should not be assumed that they are.

 

[Asimovking]

All epic fantasy is secondary world fantasy. The problem is that we've abused the stuffing out of the word epic, and so some of us have started using secondary world fantasy to be clearer. A secondary world fantasy is, as hippokrene said, a story that takes place in a world that is not Earth or an alternate form of Earth.



Which cookie cutter would that be? The market depends on variety; therefore automatically assuming that publishers don't want your novel because it has X to it is not a good game to play.



It varies widely. Everybody's experience is different. To get a good estimate on self-publishing, you can go and see what Amazon, the Nook at Barnes & Noble and Smashwords have as terms for e-publication. You'll also have to decide if you want to hire a freelance editor, copy-editor, book cover designer, etc., which effects costs. If you're doing print or print on demand as well, that's a whole other kettle of fish. Some authors snag a publisher after a few months of going out with a book, and others take years. Response times are slow, but then a sale can happen fast. So we can't really answer your question because it depends on the book, luck, economic conditions at the time, etc.



Everybody moans about a lack of originality, cookie cutter molds and cliches. Meyers having sparkling vampires was completely original. And unless you're writing YA romance, Meyers book has got nothing to do with you. Even if you are writing YA romance, Meyers helps you get sales through symbiosis. If you are writing adult fantasy, Meyers isn't who you should be concentrating on. It doesn't matter if her vampires are broody emos or monstrous killers -- both are in the marketplace on a regular basis and were long before Meyers came on the scene. What you're really complaining about is that a bunch of teenage girls like the characters of Bella and Edward. They also like Justin Bieber, unicorns and five inch plastic heels, and no reason why they shouldn't. Deal with it.

And related to the thread topic, Meyers books were quite long, so again, publishers are not necessarily adverse to length and it should not be assumed that they are.

I never said I was concentrating on her. The other guy mentioned her so I said what I wanted to say about her. Her work is garbage that is made specifically for mainstream to make money. Vampires that glitter in the sun? It may be original but it is still a very bad idea. Horrible. She took Blade/Underworld and went Hmmmmm I wonder how I could get almost every 10 year old to want this?

Lol now that was nothing but a completely dumb statement. And im being nice about it. I couldnt care less what teenage girls like. Deal with it? Lol dont get mad at me, it ain't my fault Stephanie Myers is a hack.

If my response has any effect on you at all it should be to get you to realize you shouldn't take what someone says out of context or put words in their mouth, let alone do both at once like you did.

What I said was my opinion about her. Why should you care enough to attack me on it? Do you not believe people are entitled to have their own opinions?

 

[KatG]

Looking at my post in light of yours, it appears clear to me that my attempt to joke sounded instead peevish, for which I apologize.

I don't agree with your assessment of why Meyers wrote and I don't really see why anyone brings her up if they don't have a teenage girl at home; it seems to have become a free-for-all to bully up on teenage girls whereas nobody is constantly ragging about how horrible bestselling Warhammer tie-in books are or innumerable other projects that are more relevant to the adult market. So yeah, I've gotten a bit tired of hearing that particular diatribe. But I'm not trying to attack you. I'm saying why are you and virangelus bothering. There are a whole lot of other authors more important for you to be reading if you're getting to know the marketplace and be able to communicate about your work to publishing people and promotionally. If you're writing space opera science fiction, Meyers' sparkly vampires have nothing to do with it.

 

[M. R. Mathias]

I wrote my first novels in prison in longhand. I wrote them to pass the time and make up for the lack of reading material. I self published last year and the first book of my trilogy has been in the Amazon top 100 for Fantasy & Mythology for 9 months straight at the kindle store.

A quote from one of my favorite songs.

"You got to bleed a little while you sing, lest the words don't mean a thing. You gotta get to the heart of soul." - The Cult

Don't write for the market. Write for you. The reader will know the difference.

Just MHO.

 

[M. R. Mathias]

So no advice on how much it costs to self E-Publish or how long it takes to shop a novel to publishers?

Self publishing is basicly free, and very easy (for eBooks). Cover art, a good edit, not so much. eReaders are the in thing now. I sell way more ebooks than books. You can read on a blackberry, iphone, ipad, nook , kindle, kobo, droid, etc...

 

[Asimovking]

Looking at my post in light of yours, it appears clear to me that my attempt to joke sounded instead peevish, for which I apologize.

I don't agree with your assessment of why Meyers wrote and I don't really see why anyone brings her up if they don't have a teenage girl at home; it seems to have become a free-for-all to bully up on teenage girls whereas nobody is constantly ragging about how horrible bestselling Warhammer tie-in books are or innumerable other projects that are more relevant to the adult market. So yeah, I've gotten a bit tired of hearing that particular diatribe. But I'm not trying to attack you. I'm saying why are you and virangelus bothering. There are a whole lot of other authors more important for you to be reading if you're getting to know the marketplace and be able to communicate about your work to publishing people and promotionally. If you're writing space opera science fiction, Meyers' sparkly vampires have nothing to do with it.

I apologize. I had no idea you were joking. As for why did I bother? That's me I guess, I tend to lend my opinions at random times on random subjects. It isn't at all an attack on teenage girls. It is an expression of my dislike of stephanie myers. The stephanie myers comments have nothing to do with me getting to know the marketplace. Someone made a comment that was OT and I gave my two cents.

 

[Asimovking]

I wrote my first novels in prison in longhand. I wrote them to pass the time and make up for the lack of reading material. I self published last year and the first book of my trilogy has been in the Amazon top 100 for Fantasy & Mythology for 9 months straight at the kindle store.

A quote from one of my favorite songs.

"You got to bleed a little while you sing, lest the words don't mean a thing. You gotta get to the heart of soul." - The Cult

Don't write for the market. Write for you. The reader will know the difference.

Just MHO.

Thank you and grats. That's badass

 

[Laer Carroll]

Stephanie Meyer wrote a book she loved, submitted it to agents, suffered rejections, and was lucky enough to sell it. Putting her down and putting down those who loved her books is not smart. You should instead be trying to do the same thing: write, finish, submit, and hope.

So you think she wrote crap. Write better than she did. Raise the bar.

Meyer did us all a favor by hooking millions of readers. Many of them are young. Some of them will continue to read. They will grow up, their tastes mature. And maybe by the time you get your stuff published - if you ever do - they will be ready for your wonderful, witty, startlingly original material.

 

[KatG]

I apologize. I had no idea you were joking. As for why did I bother? That's me I guess, I tend to lend my opinions at random times on random subjects. It isn't at all an attack on teenage girls. It is an expression of my dislike of stephanie myers. The stephanie myers comments have nothing to do with me getting to know the marketplace. Someone made a comment that was OT and I gave my two cents.

Well it was my fault; I didn't do it very well. But bear in mind -- you read Stephanie Meyers -- a YA romance written for teenage girls (who you feel should not like sparkly vampires, which is not a critique of Meyers but of her audience; ) you didn't know the lengths of space opera SF novels in the marketplace. One isn't very important for what you're doing; the other bit of knowledge helps answer some of your questions in the area in which you are actually writing. In a situation of limited resources and time, I'm suggesting concentrating on what matters more to you.

 

[A. Lynn]

Well it was my fault; I didn't do it very well. But bear in mind -- you read Stephanie Meyers -- a YA romance written for teenage girls (who you feel should not like sparkly vampires, which is not a critique of Meyers but of her audience; ) you didn't know the lengths of space opera SF novels in the marketplace. One isn't very important for what you're doing; the other bit of knowledge helps answer some of your questions in the area in which you are actually writing. In a situation of limited resources and time, I'm suggesting concentrating on what matters more to you.

My oh my, I really hope I did not create chaos in the wake of my Stephanie Meyers comment. I do want to put this out... I don't hate Stephanie Meyers I in fact quite enjoy that she showed up.

A. She got teenage girls to read which has never damaged ANY of us authors last time I checked. (Even though I do hope that their mothers are thoroughly involved in their lives before they seek out a 'bad boy' boyfriend they percieve to be Edward, because that COULD be bad).

B. In response to Jon Sprunk's comment about being long-winded, I wanted to remind everybody that famous run-away novels are both long-winded and to the point, which Stephanie Meyers is illustrative of. (Afterall, Meyers DOES spend a long time discussing how beautiful Edward Cullen is)

C. Apparently any idea can work... even ones that you NEVER would have thought could take off (Seriously, a sparkly vampire?? I never would have thought that would fly and it did, and that is admirable).

D. Meyers not only releases an idea that I thought to be outlandish, but she re-released the same storyline under a second point of view and it still sold! Meaning that ideas can become new again if told from a different point of view (which means things that might be cookie-cutter don't have to be!)

So as strange as I think her success is, I still applaud it because as I said before, no matter how long-winded, or strangely "Lisa Frank" your idea is, it CAN be sold and can do well.

It's somewhat like the Ratatouille slogan, "Anyone can cook." In this case, anyone can tell a story that the world cares to hear. Good luck to us all.

 

[Asimovking]

Stephanie Meyer wrote a book she loved

I'll never be convinced of this.

 

[Asimovking]

Well it was my fault; I didn't do it very well. But bear in mind -- you read Stephanie Meyers -- a YA romance written for teenage girls (who you feel should not like sparkly vampires, which is not a critique of Meyers but of her audience; ) you didn't know the lengths of space opera SF novels in the marketplace. One isn't very important for what you're doing; the other bit of knowledge helps answer some of your questions in the area in which you are actually writing. In a situation of limited resources and time, I'm suggesting concentrating on what matters more to you.

Who said anything about me reading it?

 

[Kaeru]

I read the first one, I read most things I can get my hands on. I hated it, and I don't think she did write it for the love of writing or even for the love of her story. I can't get inside her head, I can't prove it, but I don't like twilight, because I feel like she's one of the used car salesmen of the literary world. She got a gimmick that worked and she sold it. Emphasis on sold. But, when trying to publish, there's something you can learn from every author.

 

[Susan Boulton]

Just my 2 pennies worth.

Stephanie Meyer wrote a book. That means she actually finished, edited and polished a manuscript. Having done this a few times myself it is not an easy task. A lot of people start a novel, very, very, few finish one.

She then started submitting to agents. This can be totally soul destroying watching the emails bounce back, ot the large packet drop through the mail box, returned, rejected.

Then one agent decided her manuscript had something that made it different, or as my agent says, that, wow, I want to read what is on the next page. Once that agent accepted Meyer's manuscript I bet there was a round of tweaking the manuscript/editing of the manuscript re the agents suggestions.

After that the agent had to approach publishers and sell the manuscript to an editor. The Editor if she or he liked it had to convince the money men/women at the publishers to take a risk, yes RISK. It was a risk, no book is a sure fire best seller, no matter what you want to think. (hindsight is a wonderful thing).

The publisher took a risk and Stephanie Meyer was published. Now her book could have vanished without trace, or sold enough to cover her advance, or just push her into the "mid list", but something happened. Folks read it, liked it and that strange thing, word of mouth took over. People told each other about it. Once the publishing house picked up on this they put a huge chunk of money behind the book, even then it could have failed. Advertising alone does not sell a book.

To be honest I don't like Stephanie Meyer's work, but I know a lot about the process of getting published and all the what ifs, pit falls and blind alleys that litter the road. She made it through and got the pot of gold, good for her.

It doesn't happen by magic, there is a lot of hard work and tears along the way.

Stephanie Meyer's is a best seller, has her books in book stores across the world. Any writer worth there salt and trying to get their work noticed would wish for a quarter of that success.

As for the OP, work hard, follow the process, get hurt, bumped, but keep at it. Study what pubishers are buying, not what is being published today or five years ago. Find out the length a publisher will consider and work to that. Yes, long novels sell, but into days hard times they have got to really knock the socks off both an agent and publisher to get taken up, even then it is not a given. You work can sparkle and fizz, but still get turned down.

Who knows who the next Stephanie Meyer's is. Publishers certainly don't, oh yes, they understand the market trends and work within them, but a best seller like Stephanie Meyer nearly always comes out of the "ok, it is good enough to publish we will give it a try, pile."

 

[Asimovking]

I read the first one, I read most things I can get my hands on. I hated it, and I don't think she did write it for the love of writing or even for the love of her story. I can't get inside her head, I can't prove it, but I don't like twilight, because I feel like she's one of the used car salesmen of the literary world. She got a gimmick that worked and she sold it. Emphasis on sold.

That's exactly what she did.

 

[Asimovking]

Study what pubishers are buying, not what is being published today or five years ago.

But if I conform to that, how can I be sure that will still be what they are buying in 2-3 years? (It easily could be that long before my first novel is ready to shop.)

 

[Susan Boulton]

But if I conform to that, how can I be sure that will still be what they are buying in 2-3 years? (It easily could be that long before my first novel is ready to shop.)

You keep track of the market. You note what publishers are buying, what books agents are reping and how your own work fits with these. You note what your work is like and which publisher is printing it and which agent rep'ed it. It is all a matter of finding roughly where your work will fit, then when you start submitting you are not sending out blanket submissions, but targeting the agents/publishers that might be interested.